Re: Some facts with much fiction . . bogus incentives

Posted by jdemaris on October 23, 2010 at 06:29:56 from (72.171.0.149):

In Reply to: Re: Solar electric panels - huge price drop . . . posted by Adirondack case guy on October 22, 2010 at 18:41:59:

"Getting what you pay for" is not always true -especially with solar power. I tried to avoid filling up my post with details that won't mean much except to a few people . . . but I'll add some now.

Yes of course some Chinese stuff is junk. Same with some USA components. To the converse, some of it is great quality from any country. If someone has interest, research needs to be done, as I hope many would do with buying anything.

In regard to "non-certified" panels", it is NOT always a matter of quality and they are NOT always foreign. Some of the best buys I've gotten in the past few years were manufactured in the USA, in Massachusetts by Evergreen. When they get "factory seconds" with slight cosmetic issues, they tend to ship them overseas to sell. That so they don't compete with themselves. These "blemish" panels are tested at 100% rated output, come with 100% warrranty, but do not come with the UL label (some do). So, with no label, you can still qualify for all Federal incentives, but cannot for New York incentives. Grid-tie with most power companies also allows the cheaper panels. All they care about is the end-product making perfect AC power, and therefore a certified inverter setup.

Now, about the New York State incentive program. For the most part, it is one huge scam on the tax-payers. I'm not trashing the NY certified installers. Some are good and some are 100% clueless. But that goes with just-about any trade.
I have personally spoken with the woman that runs the program for New York and she is an idiot with little technical knowledge. That is the woman with the initials "A.F." at NYSERDA - i.e. "New York State Energy Research and Development Authority." Note the word "Authority" at the end. That makes it another State taxing agency without using the word "tax."

I've been messing with solar-electric for 30 years and have watched the amazing mess government has made of it.

Here's what happened when I wanted to install my first grid-tie setup here in New York.

First - New York requires that you MUST use only installers certified by the State to qualify. OK. Back in 2006, the great State of NY had 70 certified installers, and a population of 18,200,000 people. I.e., one installer for every 257,000 people. Think there was a monopoly?

Second - Since, as a "customer", you were forced to use a certified installer, you were also forced to do things the way THEY wanted to, and often pay very high mark-up on parts, and extremely high labor rates.

Third - At the very same time, other states with incentive programs were allowing customers to "self buy" and "self install." That includes California, and NY neighbor - New Jersey (New Jersey's Clean Energy Program). So, if you were in NJ, you could shop around for the best deals and sometimes save half the cost of components. And with self-install?? Worked out fine. In NY and NJ, regardless of who does the job, it has to be inspected by an independent inspector AND the power company. Note I have seen MANY fail that were done by certified NY installers.

This idea of having to use a certified installer is rediculous. Many have few skills and many have no history in electric wiring.

One ancecdotal story - my first grid-tie. OK, I priced it out. If non-grid, I could install at 1/4 the cost, but I'd be wasting a lot of power I couldn't store. I had four different NY certified installers come here and give estimates. All four estimated my useage and needs wrong. They also had huge mark-up on parts - mainly because they were all buying pre-fab kits from Sunwize in Kingston (just another middleman making money on sales). And, my best guess for the labor rate they were charging was somewhere around $450 per hour. Pure scam, in my opinion.
What I did was this. I found a new company with two newly certified installers hungry for work. First, I talked them into hiring me as a "sub-contractor" to work on this install at my own home. Then, I told them I'd buy all the components and they said I was not allowed. So ?? I contacted the State Senator and had a big go-aorund with the energy-program leader at NYSERDA. I finally prevailed and bought all the stuff myself. I also designed my entire system - it was not a store-bought prefab from Sunwize.
Next issue was "shut-down." Most systems installed MUST shut down all solar power if the grid is down. Sorry, that makes little sense to me. Install a $40,000 system and have no power when you need it most? So, I designed my system so it WOULD work, and still comply with power company regs. That led to another politcal fight, but again I won.
OK. Then the guys - reluctantly came to do the job. I am a licensed electrician, they had NO wiring credentials or real experience BUT they were State certified. I worked along side them. They were making many stupid mistakes and when I told them, they got a bit angry - so I backed off. When all done, the job failed inspection because of their wiring mistakes. Improperly buried wire, wrong type connectors on copper to aluminum splices, etc. So, the inspector came twice and I fixed all the screw-ups.
When all done, it wound up my plan and solar-array size was 100% correct and the four intallers were ALL wrong, and their suggestions would of been too small. They all said a 3800 watt array was all I needed and qualifed for. I installed a 5400 watt system and that worked out perfectly to meet required output specs per year.
So much for "experts" and getting "what you pay for."

Anecdotal NY story #2. Again in NY. An elderly friend of mine decided to "go green." He hired installers, got NY incentives and put in a huge system. Close to a $60,000 price-tag. NOTE: NY rules say once you get the incentive money, you must keep ownership for at least 2 years - or - you have to pay it all back. OK. He installed and four months later decided to move. So, he sold the house (along with the $60,000 system). What happened?? NOTHING. The leader of NYSERDA did not want to deal with the paper-work, and did nothing to get the money back. YOUR tax dollars - NOT at work.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't some good installers out there. And, if you are a person without skills - and want to install solar and save some money - and have somebody else do all the work - then the program is probably for you.
You will get money back - that is forcibly taken from other tax-payers and electric-rate payers.

One added comment. An off-grid install is MUCH cheaper. Often 1/4 the cost for the same power made. Even the modified-wave inverters are 1/4 the cost and are actually MORE efficient then the expensive full sine-wave inverters. Big problem is - if you are installing in a place like NY that is dark and gloomy much of the year . . . you need a way to make a lot of power when the sun shines, store it, and use it when it's dark and gloomly. Thus the reason for grid-tie. Power company takes your extra power and lets you have it back when you need it. At least in NY, the company has to pay you for any overage. In Michigan, the power company gets to resell it to others and keep the money.

Back to square-one here. In regard to the cheap solar panels I mentioned. All come with a full 20 year warranty. Now, will those companies still exist in 20 years? Who knows, but you can say the same for all the high-priced panels also. The reality is, solar panels don't just "fail." They can lose output and usually can be repaired. I've fixed many. Mostly due to tree-branches hitting them, and not from normal use-failures.

Replies:

• Re: Some facts with much fiction . . bogus incentives tlak 08:03:20 10/23/10 (1)
  • Re: Some facts with much fiction . . bogus incentives jdemaris 08:22:41 10/23/10 (0)

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