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Super C Questions.

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farmallhal

01-20-2005 17:48:49




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Saw a Super C today as I've been looking for one for a restoration project. Has a late 1951 serial number along with casting codes which support the s/n except on the engine block. The block has an early 1949 "S" code. What gives here? Is this a 113 cu. in. block from a plain C or an early Super A which replaced the original 123 cu. in. block? Can this be a 123 cu. in. engine with that casting date? Also had a fast hitch that looks correct but thought they weren't introduced until 1952. Was missing the Touch Control Temperature Gauge and didn't see anything that indicated it ever had one - was this gauge an option? Was it common to retrofit the fast hitches back onto the earlier SC's? The tractor had all of the normal SC features, disc brakes, water pump, curved clutch and brake pedals, etc. Your comments on this tractor would be most appreciated and thanks to those who post back. Hal

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jwh

01-21-2005 18:44:56




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to farmallhal, 01-20-2005 17:48:49  
Don't know about you're engine but I've got an original 16 page manual for installing the complete hitch kit on super c' that came without. There's three different part no's for hitch kits, depending on tractor serial no's. Jim



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farmallhal

01-22-2005 07:08:26




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to jwh, 01-21-2005 18:44:56  
Thanks for your post and is this manual for sale or a copy of such? Would be nice to know especially the s/n blocks which must have common features for a specific kit of parts? My email is: russell@wavecomputers.net if you want to respond off line. Thanks, Hal



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kjm

01-21-2005 20:23:41




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to jwh, 01-21-2005 18:44:56  
jwh, Would you sell a copy of the manual? kjm



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El Toro

01-21-2005 03:21:07




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to farmallhal, 01-20-2005 17:48:49  
Hi Hal, The Super C had a water pump too, the A's, B's and C's had thermo-siphoning. Hal from MD



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CNKS

01-20-2005 18:43:43




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to farmallhal, 01-20-2005 17:48:49  
Blocks in the Super A and C were changed to 123's with thicker sleeves so that they remained 113's. My C parts book indicates that there was a block change at chassis serial 36001 for the C. This was about mid 1949. But since yours is actually a Super C, it appears that your engine has been changed. If you have a C113 engine, the part number on the block should be 354895 (suffix not important). What I "assume" to be the Super C block is 366294. In that case you could have 113 sleeves or 123 sleeves if someone changed them. Hopefully someone else can clarify.

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Stan(VA).

01-21-2005 06:36:00




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to CNKS, 01-20-2005 18:43:43  
CNKS,
I think we're getting off here. Don't have time this morning to do this justice, so will ref two prev threads that hashed this out.

Farmall 100 engine thread

Link


Farmall Super A engine thread

Link

In a nutshell, Hal needs to check the engines casting number (possible someone swapped a C motor onto a Super C); the #36001 SN split that you refer to is in the C123 designated motors of the hundred series tractors, not the letter series time frame; and finally, the 366204 casting in your parts book is not the original block for the C, but the "current" generic replacement block offered by IH at the time of the printing of your parts book. The C/Super C block numbers are 251069 and 354898 respectively.

Sorry this is so short, but will check back in a few days when I am free.
Stan(VA).

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farmallhal

01-21-2005 11:58:14




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to Stan(VA)., 01-21-2005 06:36:00  
Thanks Stan for the post and threads to some useful information. The Super A thread had some great information relative to my post. From reading it I guess the engine in the 1951 SC I looked at yesterday could have been updated with thinner sleeves to a 123 cu. in. displacement but wouldn't have a clue without taking the head off. It could also have been a complete engine from a Super A or straight C and installed to replaced a busted 123 cu. in engine without any internal changes. My H and M both have the correct casting codes for the year and the period when they were produced. I just feel this SC is not an original tractor and what components are presently in the engine really probably don't matter if I could accept a non-original tractor. Thanks again for your post and if you care to add something additional specific to my post I would certainly appreciate it. Hal

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Stan(VA).

01-24-2005 14:36:11




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to farmallhal, 01-21-2005 11:58:14  
farmallhal,
I think the only thing you can do to go further with this is to go back and get the casting number (behind the oil filter) and the serial number (with prefix) of the engine (flat below #1 plug) in the Super C. We are assuming that with an 'S' casting date it will be a 251069 block, and the serial number prefix can tell you if it came from a C 'FCM' or a Super A 'FAAM'.

I hesitate to add to the options ;) but one more monkey wrench to throw in here is that there are 500, early 1950 C tractors built during the white demo build that came with C123 blocks. I have never had my hands on one of these though, so I have no idea what casting number they received, but they do have the larger (3-7/16") sleeve openings.

CKNS,
I know what you mean with trying to follow the parts books sometimes. Crankshafts are a great example: Occasionally you can find the part number that matches a casting number, often they're just listed as part of a replacement block assy as NSS, other times listed as an assy including bearings with a new part number that no longer matches the casting! That 366204 number is an actual block casting, I have seen one of those.
Stan(VA).

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farmallhal

01-24-2005 17:59:42




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to Stan(VA)., 01-24-2005 14:36:11  
Thanks Stan for providing the follow-up information. I've decided to let that one go in another direction. Too expensive and it's only plus along with the fast hitch was the near perfect tin. All tires and one rear rim were shot, won't start, all wiring just a mess and useless, original controls, guages and switches either broken or missing, and priced far too high for the condition not to mention the incorrect engine. It could have been restored back properply but I don't need a non-original $5K Super C when done. Thanks again. Hal

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CNKS

01-21-2005 09:57:47




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to Stan(VA)., 01-21-2005 06:36:00  
Stan, I made a mistake, in that I provided the numbers of the block assembly, not the stripped block. I know better than that but did it anyway. Another I found -- my C parts book is apparantly WRONG. It lists 354898 as the block number for the C113 produced prior to C chassis serial 36001. My Super A parts book lists 354898 as the C123 bare engine block in the 3.125x4 (C123) "Service engines" section. 354898 is also listed as the bare engine block in Chassis serial 310300-up (1951) for the Super A in the main (3x4)section. It does not list the actual block (only) number for the serials PRIOR to 310300. I'm going to bail out of this and plead ignorance, as I can't trust my parts books. I have both a 1950 C SN 52824, and Super A SN 350942, have never looked at the block numbers, the Super A, then must have the C123 block, never had it apart, don't know what sleeves are in it, same with the C. Will look this afternoon, and leave the rest up to you, as the more I think I know, the less I know. Haven't look at your threads, will do that too.

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farmallhal

01-21-2005 11:02:05




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to CNKS, 01-21-2005 09:57:47  
Thanks CNKS for your post and everything mentioned on this site is valuable. I am totally new to the C and Super C tractors. Just am looking to acquire one for a restoration project but want it to be correct. I just feel something is wrong with that S code engine block in a late 1951 SC where everything else is W coded. I have a restored H and M and everything is coded properly so I believe they are original tractors. Just can't get too excited about a tractor with the wrong engine block and don't know if it could even have the 123 cu. in. components anyway. Don't know if they used thinner wall sleeves to increase displacement or if they used a different block boring to accomodate standard wall sleeves. Just trying to pick up a "learning experience" from this venture. Didn't think of jotting down the block casting number until I was well on the way home. In looking at Guy Fay's "IH Tractor Data Book" it indicates the 123 cu. in. engine was only used in some 1954 Super A's and AV's and are designated in his book with a -1. So if his book is correct, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, the Super A series still had the 113 cu. in. engine until 1954. Don't know what the Super components might have been unless it was in the pistons or cylinder head as the Supers had a slightly higher compression ratio while retaining the same bore (3") and stroke (4"). I feel the tractor was truly a Super C as it had the usual identifying features, disc brakes, water pump, curved or dogleg pedals, etc.. Thanks again for your posts and I'll work through the threads that Stan sent along. Hal

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Robbie6

01-21-2005 05:58:18




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to CNKS, 01-20-2005 18:43:43  
CNKS, I got reading your post, looking in my parts books, looking up some data on tractors previously owned, got confused, and finally had to sneak outside (-30 degrees!) this morning and look at my Super A and C. That confused me even more! Here is what I found:

1948 Farmall Super AV with casting date of R,
S/N: unreadable, Engine P/N: 2510xx, Engine Cast Date: unknown Engine S/N: 258156

1948 Farmall Super A with casting Date of R S/N: FAA 263387, Engine P/N: 251069R1,
Engine Cast Date: unknown Engine S/N: unknown

1950 Farmall Super A with casting Date of T
S/N: Unknown (data plate missing) Engine P/N: 251069R1, Engine Cast Date: unknown Engine S/N: unknown

1950 Farmall C with casting date of T
S/N: Unreadable, Engine P/N: 2510xx, Engine Cast Date: T, Engine S/N: unknown

1951 Farmall Super A with casting date of V
S/N: 318007, Engine P/N: 354898R1, Engine Cast Date: unknown, Engine S/N: unknown

1952 Farmall Super A with casting date of X
S/N: FAA 336509, Engine P/N: 354898, Engine Cast Date: X Engine S/N: unknown

1952 Farmall Super C with casting date of X
S/N: 141548, Engine P/N: 354898R1, Engine Cast Date: X, Engine S/N: 143208

Now I don't know if my Super C has 123 engine or not! Only thing I do know - Super AV has 3" pistons (had head off)and C has 3 1/8" pistons (owner had head off before I got it home).

I'm not helping you am I, farmallhal?

Robbie

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CNKS

01-21-2005 15:05:46




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to Robbie6, 01-21-2005 05:58:18  
Robbie6--The block number 354898 of both your later Super A's and my 1953 Super A match. 25106 is not in my C parts book but it is obviously correct as your C block numbers match those on my C, also those of your three earlier Super A's. The C block number listed in my parts book is incorrect, unless IH used both C123 and C113 engines in the C beginning in mid 1949 -- I don't think so, since the Super A did not begin using the 123 block (with thick sleeves) until mid 1951, according to my Super A parts book, which I believe to be correct--As is the case with your 1951 and 1952 Super A's, that is a 123 block with thicker sleeves to give 113 cu in. Your Super C with the same block number as your 51 and 52 Super A's "Should" be a true 123, because it should have thinner sleeves in it. The 354898 blocks don't change, the sleeves do. FARMALLHAL -- The engine in your Super C about has to be a C engine, if it was cast in 1949. Super C's and the Super A-1 with true 123's have a 3 1/8 in bore, 113's have a 3 in bore, strokes in both are 4 inches. To further the confusion, one of Stan's threads indicates you can make a 123 out of a 113 by putting in thinner sleeves, I do not know if you have to bore the block, however. You can easily view Stan's previous threads by simply backspacing over the number at the end of the URL of this thread, and typing in the number of the new thread, no need to type the whole thing. I consider Stan to be the expert on this subject, as part of my info is not correct -- he may correct this part, also, which is ok with me, because I don't like giving incorrect information, as I did in my intial response.

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CNKS

01-20-2005 18:46:22




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 Re: Super C Questions. in reply to CNKS, 01-20-2005 18:43:43  
Fast hitch can be added to a C or Super C, as the the C's and Super C's not so equipped were drilled for fast hitch.



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