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Super A cubic-inch displacement?

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Pa. Pete

06-15-2004 17:58:29




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I'm looking at buying some manuals. The engine manual depends on whether my engine has 113 cu.in.'s or 123, as the manual-seller says it could be either. I could find no info on the motor itself, though I may have missed it, not knowing where to look.

Here's what I DO know-
the tractor ser. no. is FAA 269499, which makes it a '49.
There's a cast-number on the right of the engine (under the cast-'firing order'), which is 251069 R1.
Any info to be gleaned from these? or suggestions where to look?
Thanks!

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Hugh MacKay

06-15-2004 18:20:34




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 Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to Pa. Pete, 06-15-2004 17:58:29  
Pete: With that serial number it would have been originally a C-113. However at rebuild it could have been changed. I doubt if you have anyway of knowing without removing the head. C-113 will be 3" bore and C-123 will be 3-1/8" bore.

Have you checked just under No. 1 plug on block for engine serial number? A 49 should have a serial number on block very close to tractor serial number. Does your tractor have a water pump as that would have been added on a 49? How about the casting codes on various castings? Fact still remains there is only one way to know if someone changed tractor engine to a larger bore.

I'm not sure that having the wrong book in this case is going to affect you a whole lot. You could probably get on phone or e mail with someone for 5 min. and record all that is different.

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Pa. Pete

06-15-2004 18:42:21




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 Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-15-2004 18:20:34  
AHA!
It was hidden under the throttle-rod.

engine ser. no: FAAM 269920 G

Tractor ser. no: FAA 269499

Guess it's a 113.
My appreciation to you both.
Any significance to the "M" and the "G"?
Gas engine, likely?



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CNKS

06-15-2004 18:52:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to Pa. Pete, 06-15-2004 18:42:21  
I find no listing for the G suffix, the M is just IH's designation for the 113 engine. The designation for the 123 is FCM.



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Hugh MacKay

06-15-2004 19:06:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to CNKS, 06-15-2004 18:52:19  
CNKS: I was kind of hoping you would comment on the closeness of the serial numbers. You are up on these items much better than I.

Another question, and this arises from a discussion back about two months ago. I was advised that all C-113, pre 51 blocks will take 3-1/8" bore sleeves and that the later block will indeed take the thick 3" bore, 3-1/8" bore as well as 3-1/4" bore as in C-135 engine. Not sure that I am a believer. I'd like to here your comments.

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Stan(VA).

06-16-2004 06:15:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displacemen in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-15-2004 19:06:32  
Hugh,
Didn't you say you had a '52 or '53 Super A? That would be a good test case for the years in question. The 251069 casting number on the block in question here is a C-113. This is the standard block used in the Farmall C's also. The first C-123 blocks on Super C's have casting number 354898 (original blocks, not talking about later replacements). Also interestingly, they were not putting the C-1xx designators on the blocks yet. I checked '52 and '54 Super C blocks (354898 R1/R2) and they do not say C-123 on them (meaning they possibly could have been sleeved to either 113 or 123's without causing confusion). But I also checked 230/140/240 blocks and they all have the C-123 designation cast in (just above the firing order). I have never taken the time to chase it down on Super A's, but by the parts books they show an engine change at serial number 310,300 which is mid '51 corresponding to when the Super C was introduced. So my wild guess is that all the later Super A's (anything after 310,300) came with the 354898 blocks. If you have/still have a '52 or '53 it would be great to know what block is on yours and whether you still believe it to be the original block.
Stan(VA).

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Hugh MacKay

06-16-2004 17:08:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displac in reply to Stan(VA)., 06-16-2004 06:15:03  
Stan: My Super A has it's original engine. The tractor serial number is 336977 making it a 1953 model. The engine serial number is 338597. The block part number is 354898 R1. I did have the head off my Super A about 10 years ago and it does have the thick sleeves with 3" bore. I had to replace a head gasket. The guy who helped me with this and I did take the oil pan off at same time to remove a dent in it. From what we saw, top and bottom, our opinion this engine had never been rebuilt.

The tractor has presurized thermosyphon cooling, radiator is original, fan is original. Carb and distributor have been rebuilt.

The tractor does have 9.5x24 tires. My 130 and 140 have 12.4x24 and 11.2x24 respectively. Where traction is not a problem that little SA will still give 130 and 140 a run for the money on a drawbar pull. I have a 17 tooth S tine 1 point hitch field cultivator. It will stop any of these tractors if you drop it. Super A will lug that in 2nd gear and do it just as easy as 130 and 140. And yes you can hear the kettle boil when you shut her down from that. So much for C-123 and the extra horse power.

My 130 and 140 both have C-123 stamped on block, bearing out what you say. To clarify, which of 3", 3-1/8" and 3-1/4 piston sleeve set will fit these various blocks?

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Stan(VA).

06-17-2004 06:30:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch dis in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-16-2004 17:08:30  
Thanks, Hugh. That is some useful info. As far as possible sleeve configurations:

The 251069 block has 3-5/16" sleeve OD (at the O-ring) and originally had standard sleeve and 3" bore (C-113). The overbore kits are thin sleeve with 3-1/8" bore (C-123).

The 354898 block has 3-7/16" sleeve OD and (we now know) came in two standard configurations: 1- standard sleeve with 3-1/8" bore (C-123 Super C); or 2- thick sleeve and 3" bore (C-113 in late Super A). The overbore kits are thin sleeve with 3-1/4" bore (~C-133).

It gets more interesting when the x30 series came out. 130/140 and 230/240 tractors came with C-123 that used the thin sleeve 3-1/8" piston/sleeve set from the factory (3-1/8" bore and 3-5/16" sleeve OD). I have been told that IH's overbore kits for the C-113 would not interchange with the factory kits for the x30/x40 series, but I know that the aftermarket ones do interchange. My guess is that they changed the depth from the bottom of the sleeve that the O-ring seats at and the aftermarket kits handle the deeper ones so they can be used in either?

My 230 has block number 366204R1 eng num 39465; my spare 240U block is 367825R2 eng num 75014; my 140 block is also 367825R2 eng num 101390. The parts book shows a change at eng num 65000. I assume that is the 366204 to 367825 block change that changed the front of the block for the new style water pump and they received the new style crankshaft that used a nut to hold the front pulley on instead of the press fit system. This new pulley uses a thinner fan belt also.

The important thing to remember is that you need the sleeve OD when ordering sleeves, it should be one or the other and most kits offered today are all the overbore thin-sleeve kits either 3-1/8" (for the 251069) or 3-1/4" (for the 354898). It does help to pull the old sleeves and measure because of the possibility of custom machine work being done over the years. I know of several C-113 blocks that were bored to allow use of the 3-7/16" OD sleeve kits.

I have still not had one here to play with yet, but assume the C-135 is a 3-7/16" sleeve OD with 3-1/4" bore. But I no longer assume that the 354898 overbore sleeves will intechange. From the part numbers they appear to be unique. Even the aftermarket kits do not show overlap.

Last question for you is what is the engine prefix letters on your Super A, FCM or FAAM or ? All the blocks with the C-123 cast designator don't use the stamped prefix letters anymore. I think the C-123 acts as the prefix identifier.
Stan(VA).

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Hugh MacKay

06-17-2004 16:53:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch in reply to Stan(VA)., 06-17-2004 06:30:50  
Stan: I just came in from a long day. I read your post and will get info you want Right now sleep is number one as I have to be in Detroit at 5 am. Depending on what mood costoms are that could take 4 hours. I will get back to you on Sat.



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Stan(VA).

06-18-2004 05:31:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic- in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-17-2004 16:53:12  
Hugh,
No problem, I hope things go well for you today. I'll catch up with you later in the weekend or early next week.
Stan(VA).



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Hugh MacKay

06-18-2004 19:39:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super A cu in reply to Stan(VA)., 06-18-2004 05:31:56  
Stan: 12.5 hour round trip, got back, had a bit of sleep, now I'm ready to roll. Short term anyhow. There must have been some kind of criminal ellement on the go today as both US and Canadian customs were checking photo ID. They rarely do that, at least with truck traffic, and I go there weekly. They even had the car traffic backed up this afternoon coming home.

I briefly looked at tractors and see I need to clean off some crud to get part numbers from 130 and 140. Also, and I didn't spend much time, but the letters on Super A, FCM or FAAM, I didn't spot quickly. Where are those located, just in case they don't pop up in front of me in morning? I have the tractor and engine serial numbers recorded on all my tractors. 130 is, tractor 9313 , engine 56651 and 140 is tractor 22157, engine 102230. As I said earlier they both have C-123 cast right into block.

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Stan(VA).

06-18-2004 20:00:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Super in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-18-2004 19:39:02  
Hugh,
the prefix letters for the Super A should be on the small flat under number 1 spark plug with the engine serial number. I might not be near a computer most of the day tomorrow, so take your time and have a nice weekend.
Stan.



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Hugh MacKay

06-20-2004 09:16:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Su in reply to Stan(VA)., 06-18-2004 20:00:47  
Stan: Super A engine prefix is FAAM, 130 block part number is 366204 R1 and 140 block part number is 367825 R2. I have to run, will be home around 7 pm, will check then.



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Stan(VA).

06-20-2004 18:46:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Hugh MacKay, 06-20-2004 09:16:12  
That was the last missing piece for me. Just wanted to verify if they maintained the separate prefixes after they switched to the 354898 block as I'd only been noticing them on the Super C's.
Thanks for digging this stuff up.
Stan(VA).



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Pa. Pete

06-15-2004 18:46:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to Pa. Pete, 06-15-2004 18:42:21  
And no, I don't think I have a water pump. Two belts, one between the crankshaft pulley and the fan pulley, and the other between the fan pulley and the alternator. No other pulleys.



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CNKS

06-15-2004 18:17:49




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 Re: Super A cubic-inch displacement? in reply to Pa. Pete, 06-15-2004 17:58:29  
My parts manual is in my shop, and I'm too lazy to go look all this up. That said, you have a 113 cu in engine. The Super A1, built in 1954 had a 123 cu in engine. At some point in time the straight Super A used the Super A1 block, with thicker sleeves to maintain the displacement at 113 cu in. I believe (someone correct me) that would be in 1951 when the Super C with it's 123 cu in engine appeared. It seems pointless to me, at least, at that time for IH to build both the 113 and 123 after they released the 123. For whatever reason they were not ready to release the Super A1, so they used thicker sleeves. All this should be determined by the part number on the block. The parts manual you buy will have both engines in it.

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