Posted by jdemaris on December 13, 2009 at 06:09:55 from (67.142.130.39):
In Reply to: Starting Fluid Harmful posted by mdjd4020 on December 12, 2009 at 19:31:50:
Some of these comments are absurd.
Let's say we're discussing drinking alcohol. One guy gets a bad liver at age 30 and dies and all he ever drank was beer. Another guy drinks vodka every day, and smokes three packs of non-filtered Camels daily. At age 80, he's still working in the woods every day, feeling pretty good. I've known many of both.
That's how this discussion has gone. So, beer kills, or vodka makes you live longer . . . which is it?
Just because someone has used "ether for years" and done OK proves absolutely nothing. It's not worth mentioning unless there are many more details. Especially on some gas engine that's only running a 6 to 1 compression ratio, and not 21 to 1 like on some diesels.
Do most of us at least agree, that tractors are not all the same, and . . . people are not all the same?
To Bob and his comment . . . " can you provide reliable, first-hand documentation of someone who HAS destroyed an engine with ether"
I have seen it happen many times, first hand, as the damgage was done. Also had to pull the engines apart to fix them, over and over. You ask for "reliable, first hand" info and not sure how I can certify that. I've worked for many Deere dealers over the years, and can verify my work record along with many tech certifications from Deere Co. That at least proves I was there turning wrenches.
Our biggest problem was broken pistons/rings, not scuffed cylinder walls. And, I mean broken and shattered to pieces. Next to that was cracked precombustion chamgers in IDI diesels. But, since Deere didn't make many of those, it was only a problem in 1010s and 2010s.
During the 80s, we had more forestry and commercial clients then farm tractor customers. Subsequently, we had many machines sitting in the woods or at jobsites with no electricity available for block heaters. So, a guy would come to work and it might be zero or colder. He's pull the air cleaner cover off and spray ether constantly while someone else cranked. Engine would knock, lock up , knock, and eventually start. If it was a Deere engine that did NOT have Keystone rings, the rings would often shatter first and then the pistons. That includes all the 350 and non-turbo 450 crawlers, 1020 and 2020 ag. tractors. Also 440 and 540 log skidders. Also the 480 forklifts. The common complaint was the engine "got addicted" to ether. That because after a big cold spell, the tractor never started right again. Not even in warm weather. Why? The top rings were completely gone. With no top rings, the engine still run pretty good, just start terrible and won't even try without ether. Not even when it's 80 degrees F outside. Later or more expensive engines got Keystone plasma piston rings and forged pistons that held up much better. That includes 450 crawlers with turbos, 350Ds with French Saran engines, and many older big tractors - like 3020s and 4020s. I'm mentioning Deere only because I worked at many Deere dealerships. We got many other brands to repair with the same issues. Especially Allis Chalmers HD4 crawlers, ED40 IDI engines, and small IH farm tractors with IDI engines.
One anecdotal case-in-point. Last year my farmer/logger neighbor bought himself a Deere 350 crawler from a dealer with a newly rebuilt engine. He used it all summer. Then winter came. I helped him put steering clutches in, and then . . . when we wanted to start it (in an unheated shop) he broke out the ether. And, he refused to use Deere's OEM ether injector. Why? It didn't put enough in to satisfy him. At that time I warned him that he needed a block heater and he laughed at me (like some of the forum people here). Let's call it "happy oblivion." I left. A month later he called me telling me his crawler wouldn't start anymore. So, I pulled the head off. All three pistons broken, but #2 was completely gone. So . . . pulled it all apart. Ordered Tisco pistons and sleeves. Then I came back and threw it together for him. I also warned him this would be the last time if he did NOT install a block heater. So, he did. Then a few weeks later he calls me again. Really angry telling me his crawler is a bad as before and the Tisco parts were "no **** good." He swore to me he hadn't used any ether. So, out of feeling some guilt, I went back up. Remember, this is a "friend" and I'm doing all this for free. I pull the head off and this time two pistons are missing. Just bare rods in there with pieces all over the place. I was really perplexed. I'd never seen one quite this bad. I got thinking maybe Tisco was selling bad parts. So, I rebuilt it again, this time with parts from Deere. Then . . . this guys granddaughter stops by and thanks him for helping her out. For what? She tells me that the he car had gotten stuck in the snow by their house. It was below zero. So, "grandpa" was in a hurry to get his Deere crawler started and the block heater was not plugged in. So? She helped him start it. She cranked why he kept spraying ether into the intake. She said it sounded awful, tried to start, smoked, and then gave up.
I got real ticked off. Then, grandpa admittted to me that yes, he used ether again, but only "once." I think he learned his lesson, but we'll see.
And, to be clear - I am not saying ether used in any way destroys engines. Give me a break. On this 350, Deere Co. took he trouble to provide a safe ether injector on the dashboard, that uses a control orifice. The owner did NOT use it.
John Bud posted some typical ether damage photos at:
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