Re: Bidding contract question.

Posted by Billy NY on February 02, 2014 at 08:50:58 from (72.226.79.200):

In Reply to: Re: Bidding contract question. posted by oldtanker on February 01, 2014 at 23:47:59:

That loading plan, and what you describe is a good example of a mis-coordination. The same thing can and does happen when constructing buildings. There is such a thing as common sense here, I've never figured out why in heck people don't use it when its needed. If that task were assigned to me, sure I could design it, draft it up, but there's no way I'm, implementing it or approving it until I've had the chance to "mock" it up on that tank and go through the operational part of it, note any problems, make necessary corrections, repeat, until its right. I've always said that the best information you'll find on things like this is from the end user. If its a means and methods issue, construct-ability situation, best information comes from the field personnel, in your case that would be NCO's. Even today with 3d modeling, all the technology, resources, still happens. One of the challenges with large and complex buildings was coordinating all the plans, architectural, structural, M.E.P. and all the approved shop drawings from things being fabricated off site that need to fit. There will always be problems, but it can be minimized, more so today.

If that was in fact the problem when the government purchases items like hammers, toilet seats, we've all heard about things like that, makes no sense, have to add in some corruption somewhere along the line too. It should be as simple as the specification writer, calling for dimensions, type of material, finish, whatever the criteria, need X amount of these, send it to bid, review bids and award. Means and methods should be left to the manufacturer that has to meet the specifications.

Its really surprising that considering what an infantryman, (or gender correct "person") does on their feet, careful consideration was not given when designing the footwear, its just as important as your weapon. I think I still have a pair of the Goodrich sole boots, the shock and impact transferred, well on hard surfaces, no give, they look nice in drill and ceremony, but for PT, I guess we just did not have the materials developed. I remember I saw on that show "Pitchmen" the one guy who pitched Oxyclean, now deceased, he and his partner had a product come in, some crazy cushion, rubbery type material, they wrapped up one of their arms in it and ran a vehicle over it. I think it was Billy Mays, he called it off, backed out of doing this himself, someone else did it, they literally ran a vehicle over his arm. No problem, talk about a cushion material, the inventor discovered it by accident. Perfect if you work on concrete decks all day! I really liked that show, because of the people that brought in products I used to think it was a bunch of low quality crap, but a fair amount of it was not, like that material, that was something, thinking of how shoes and ones feet can be so uncomfortable at times.

I remember the M16 A1's, was not a big fan after experiencing the use of them, just another thing you have to work around so it did not let you down. I knew then, someday I'd own the civilian version of the M14, surprisingly variants of it are still in use today, upgraded, modernized versions. I'm sure those who need and have them or similar are thankful. Its impressive whats out there today, too many variables but you would hope the people in uniform today benefit from all these improvements, and whats available now, so much advancement its hard to take it all in and remember.

Planning a building like you describe is not all that difficult, the more you do up front as the owner and is reflected in the design, the better the job will turn out. Complete designs get you firm prices on what you want, leave holes in that design, the cost goes up when its discovered in the field, it also causes field related problems, all starts with complete documents.

Look at the site, note problems, rock, water, drainage, check elevations, make sure its conducive to what you want to do, no problems exist, and that you can prepare it within reasonable cost for the building you want to erect. You could take any of the reputable building manufacturers out there today, that cater to ag or similar style buildings, take a common style building and systematically mark up a generic plan with your needs or requirements.

You could also specify same covering all the criteria, kind of writing your own specifications, most importantly get it all out on the table and make sure everything you want and or need is listed. Don't rush it, do that, then walk away, leave some time in between, give it some thought, see if anything else needs to be added or even deleted, it works both ways. The point of this is, ideally you want a complete design, BEFORE going to bid. These outfits will or should reflect all of that when they respond with a set of plans, that you need to review. In this case you'll likely be dealing with a building manufacturer who has the capability of providing design services, engineer stamped plans, meeting code or what ever is required. So you have to pay attention to what they provide in the plans, spec's, then mark those up accordingly, approve as noted if you change things, then know its complete, satisfactory. This should result in a firm price, good for a specified period of time, as escalation of material prices happens quickly today, so it may go up if you wait. With this method, you must shop it, by taking bids, same criteria, design for each, then review each, you'll have to arrive at a decision based on what you see. When you go to bid, the numbers will reflect or should, what you want, you get a real lowball bid, theres a problem somewhere, get a real high bid, same thing, contractors will throw crazy numbers at you to see if you will bite, because sometimes people will do just that. Said contractor may have just made excessive profit off you. Multiple bids should reflect a certain balance, they should be within proximity of each other, not way high or way low, all based on a complete design that the owner is satisfied with. Its paramount that you take the initiative to make sure that design is what you want, think of future uses, needs, plan in anything important if you can't afford it now, but can later whereas all you have to do is make sure the concrete or structure is built to accommodate it. If you have to come back later it will cost you a lot more then. Pay now or pay a lot more later on.

If you go the traditional route, straight up contractors, who just build, then you have to perform the same function with a designer you hire, create plans and specifications that meet your needs, then take those documents and send it to bid, to reputable contractors, review said bids and make a decision. This is not a complicated type of building, relatively simple and easy to design.

NEVER...(my preference, others may disagree) tell any contractor your budget, its bad practice. You take a completed design in hand, one that you approve of, am satisfied with 100% and have them bid on it, the plans and specifications for what you want to buy here. Review the prices, scope(s) of work and make a decision. You obviously have to make sure what you want is within reason of what you can spend, this is a simple building, so it won't be difficult figure that out well in advance. Now if you get 5 prices that are out of your budget range, you either need to be able to increase your budget or you will have to do some, "value engineering" to reduce the cost. Eliminate something, reduce size or anything similar. If that can't be done, then there is a problem to resolve. I do not believe in telling any contractor what I have to spend, once you do that, that is what you will likely spend because they know you have it. I'd rather keep them in the dark about it, you tell me what its going to cost via the bid process, based on the documents provided. At that point, prior to award you can negotiate a little, you don't want to hack off so much that they will leave or cut corners, they still need to make a fair profit. Usually there will be a little room. This is a small job, so the numbers are small, but anything you can negotiate less will stay in your pocket. Or given that you sent it to bid, you may come in within your budget,they don;t get whats left over because they do not know about it, they base their bid on real prices, your budget and actual cost could be 2 very different numbers, you realize the savings not them. Tell them your budget number, its very likely that is what you will pay, you don't know what their labor, material, profit and overhead costs are, so why should they know what you have to spend. You could in the contract, specify that they provide unit prices, for the purpose if a change to the contract is needed. Say something needs to be added or something unforseen arises, it happens all the time. In that case you negotiate a change order based on agreed unit prices stated in the contract, not some arbitrary high number thrown at you. There are "change order" contractors out there who just love gouging customers when that happens. Contractor is already on the job, the necessary change creates a bind, it may stop progress, the customer ends up giving in, and its often times costly and unfair. I have no problem increasing a contract if the situation calls for it and the price is fair.

A contractor will do the job if its an overall fair price for the entire project. You can't beat them up too much up front, and rightfully so fair is fair. The best way to get that price is to have them competitively bid it, they know they cannot add in a lot of fluff to their benefit. NEVER tell them who they are bidding against. Bad practice. Bids are based on the same criteria, documents etc. so there should be no issue there. Contractors may know each other locally, collude on a bid, kick back to one another, an owner just can't take that chance. Instead of paying a fair price that a contractor will make a reasonable profit from, say 20% or maybe 25%, its possible they could make something ridiculous like 75%or 100%. Some do just that, by throwing a number out there, people do bite, more so if they have money or are just not savvy enough to know better. Contractors can and will, (not all) prey heavily on that type of customer, no farmer can afford excess or waste, so anything that is a cost savings or should be, is better in your pocket than theirs. I am by no means trashing contractors, some are absolutely the best, fair prices, great work, others don't have a conscience and will take that extra cash from you because they know they can, and that is where industry people like myself can represent an owner to make sure things are fair on both sides.

Another mistake I see is with payment terms. Use a percentage of completion method, agreed up front.Pay only for accepted work in place, small job, the duration is not very long, but this method works fine small or large. Never front any money to any contractor for any reason, if you have to do that, the contractor is incompetent or financially unstable. One compromise is purchase of materials. This is more prevalent with smaller, residential, light commercial, say Ag or similar style buildings. I've done it, it can be helpful, but a reputable contractor won't need to do it. You can agree to pay for materials up front, catch is they have to be delivered and they have to be acceptable materials, complete, and correlate 100% with the bill of materials. This can be helpful to contractor just starting out, but use care when doing so. I've used the incentive that there will be no material mark up, well unless there is excess handling where extra labor is needed. I've placed orders for what was needed, and had the customer pay direct, I have done that with rental equipment too, goes on their credit card, machine is delivered, and all they pay is my fair labor rate, it worked very well for me and I made decent money doing so, without having the liability of owning said equipment. I used to love doing this with small excavation jobs, mostly surface work, landscaping, grading, clearing or similar, in/out, you get paid on time and there is a cost savings for both parties, no overhead on the equipment charged to them and I do not have to own whatever it is, just pay as you go. Work slows down, I have no payment, maintenance or any depreciation, simple philosophy, but works. The rental place I used to deal with is no longer in business, I did a lot of work with them, and enjoyed all the jobs I did, for once work was more fun than not.

Schedule is important too, any reputable contractor wants to complete the job as efficiently and as quickly as can be done, weather and other conditions can change things, you can address all of that in the contract. The thing that is most concerning is the CRITICAL PATH. This is the longest path of activities it takes to start and finish the job, so long lead items such as pertinent equipment, or building materials that can change or increase the duration of that path need to be identified up front. Heres an example, you have a nice building, specified some fancy windows, job is scheduled to be closed in before winter, finish trades need to work in a heated building, if those windows are not delivered on time it impacts the schedule, creates out of sequence and extra work to say temporarily close the openings off, but could easily impact completion of other work activities, say for example interior finish adjoins to the windows, that is stopped until they are in place, so its out of sequence, extra work, additional cost, and delays or impacts the finish date. Probably a poor example, but should illustrate the point of how important up front planning is to the completion date, as well as daily monitoring to verify progress meets what is called for on the schedule, doing that will help recover a schedule, vs letting it go and then you are against a wall. A contrators bid has to reflect an acceptable schedule, they get in trouble and have to utilize overtime to get back on track, the owner should not pay any extra for that, its just best that the bid reflects that and this is monitored so small problems are resolved immediately. You miss taking delivery of a critical path item, one that had a long lead time to get, but is ordered too late you may have a real problem on your hand. Its highly important before a shovel goes in the ground that these items are identified and the schedule is not impacted, order early things work out nicely, leave out an item or not consider the actual lead time from placement of order to delivery in that schedule, it will cost an owner every time.

I've been waaaay.... long winded with all this, hopefully its some help to anyone brave enough to read this much LOL !!!!

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