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What now?!?!

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Lanse

05-04-2008 08:37:09




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I put the rings on the pistons this morning, then the pistons in the compressor and then into the block. Now it doesnt want to move. At all. the rod is connected to the crank, and i used that white lithum grease stuff in the compressor, the rings, and the bearings. Is there some way to loosten this up or do i have to pound it out and clean everything out and use something else??




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steamnjn23

05-06-2008 08:09:35




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
lanse, i cant speak to your problem, but i admire your guts. go slow and be sure you measure everything. use lube as dirrected. eventually you'll figure it out and you'll be wiser when its all over. there is no feeling like tackeling a project and coming out sucessful on the other side. i'm proud of your effort!



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greygoat

05-06-2008 07:58:26




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Lanse---Did you ever think about purchasing a
shop/overhaul/repair manual, AND READING IT !!!



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Mike M

05-04-2008 12:43:48




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Most seem to be making a big fuss out of the white assembly lube. That is what this lube is made for so don't worry about getting it out of there now that it is in there. I use engine oil on the rings and cylinders and that white assy. lube on the bearings and piston pins. Seems more like you have a problem with that conn. rod offset binding things up.



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jose bagge

05-04-2008 11:26:06




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
I doubt that this is a piston/ring issue since he managed to get them in the bore. It's probably the rod offset problem. The use of white grease as assembly lube scare the poop outta me. Go get some STP or even plain old motor oil. Pull your rod caps off, and massage that oil into the rod bearings. Assemble each rod/cap one at a time, and spin the crank repeatedly after you've snugged the cap down. Spin after each one- that way if it locks up you'll know which rod assembly is an issue. Once all are in and snug, and it still spins, go back and torque your rod bolts ( describing bolt stretch is outta the question here). Spin after each cap is torqued, again feeling for problems.

You should be able to spin it with 15-20 ftlbs max.

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Dick L

05-04-2008 10:57:32




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
I think you know this already but the wide side of the rods go toward each other as with 1 and 2 also 3 and 4. 1 and 4 the narrow side face out. 2 and 3 the narrow side face to the center main.

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Lanse

05-04-2008 11:43:32




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Dick L, 05-04-2008 10:57:32  
i never woulda guessed. Thanks dick!!!



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garytomaszewski

05-04-2008 10:12:42




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Lanse, Did you ever notice how your questions generate LOTS of replies ? We all want to help and see you suceed



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Lanse

05-04-2008 11:33:16




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to garytomaszewski, 05-04-2008 10:12:42  
its hard to miss, thanks you guys!!



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Dick L

05-04-2008 10:11:46




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 So Many Details in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
I assume that every one knows to do all these things but the questions and suggestions by posters show me different.
There are several types of ring cleaners and I have a couple or so. The one I like the best is this one in the picture but any will do the job.
Again I picked up this old D-15 piston out of my scrap pile outside for a coupla pictures.

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trucker40

05-04-2008 10:10:02




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
You might have a rod cap on wrong.You dont want white grease on your rings.STP is alright but I just use motor oil.When you put rod caps or main caps on,the tangs of the bearings are on the same side.Also the mains usually have a mark that points to the front,or a number stamped on them,the arrows all need to point the same way and the numbers,if it has them,should all be stamped on the same side,Also rods can be put in the wrong way.Usually the tang is on the cam side,but it doesnt have to be.Thats why you need a manual or somebody thats done this to help you.Dont get in a hurry,you waited this long a couple of more hours or days is not going to hurt you,to do it right.Usually rod bearings have a little bit of an offset to the bearings,but not always.If they do,and you put it together wrong it might be hard to turn over.When you get pistons in,bolted to the crank its going to get hard to turn over even if you do it right.As the others said you have to check the ring end gap.If it doesnt have any gap,they have to be filed.If you want that done right,and you do,you need to get some help then.A hair out of your head is about 7 thousandths thick.I think ring end gap is about 6 thousandths,thats not a lot.If you file too much,you wont have good compression,not enough,and it will maybe score a cylinder or wear out the ring lands of the piston or lots of other things.Too much gap and it might not even run,or burn oil like a sieve and smoke like a frieght train.You cant eyeball 6 thousandths,so dont get your grinder out and grind a 1/4 inch off of one end of the ring and throw it together.They even make a ring gap grinder,and you grind a little and check it,gind a very little and check it,or a file.You file a little and check it.
Sorry I have never built an engine like that so I dont know which side the tang goes on or if the mains have arrows on them,or if you have separate thrust berings on the crank,or what the marks on your cam and crank gears look like or where they go.I just know that it has to be done right or it wont work at all,and if it does,wont last long.Do it right and it will last a long time.I dont think I ever even saw a tractor like yours and I grew up on a farm,am 53 years old.It might be a little hard to find somebody that knows about it,maybe not.While I am thinking about it,usually there is a thrust washer that geos between the cam gear and the block,the brass side goes towards the gear,does it have this?Did you put it in?When you put a cam in be real carefull not to scar the bearings if you have them or dont bang the lobes into the block when you put it in,and have plenty of oil/STP or cam lube if its a new cam on it and the bearings or where it rides in the block.

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robertmn

05-04-2008 09:57:21




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Lanse; I always take a ring and install it in the bore, useing the top of the piston to SQUARE the ring in the bore. Then use a feeler gauge to the gap. Then VERY carefully file the right gap. There is a fancy tool to do this with, a little wheel and a hand crank. but I put a fine file in the vise, and very carefully file the ends, then back to the bore, to ck..... ck a lot..... ..file little. DON"T quit asking how. My 16 old grandson is making a light bar for his 4x4 and I'm helping...I'm in Ca. right now and he's back in Mn. so he calls and we figure it out!! Have fun Bobmn

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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 09:53:07




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Here is the shop manual I have on Ebay right now for less than $20.



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Dough No

05-04-2008 16:52:33




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:53:07  
Uncle Ernie get me a adress name & US dollars and I (WILL)
send you a international money order and you can send the manual to Lanse THANK YOU.



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Lanse

05-04-2008 10:28:46




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:53:07  
i would if i knew how ebay works..... I was thinking more like the I&T manuels from tractor supply



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Dick L

05-04-2008 10:00:56




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:53:07  
Be part of the project and send it to him. You will not regret it.



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Dick L

05-04-2008 09:45:57




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 Ring Gap Made Easy in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
I just ran out and grabbed a sleeve that was out side and hit it with a hone just enough to get it shinny enough to take a coupla pictures.
The ring that I am showing I would never put back in an engine. It has a (ring gap) of .029.
This engine calls for .007 (ring gap)

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Lanse

05-04-2008 10:29:42




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 Re: Ring Gap Made Easy in reply to Dick L, 05-04-2008 09:45:57  
so this means i need a feeler gauge???



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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 10:00:11




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 Re: Ring Gap Made Easy in reply to Dick L, 05-04-2008 09:45:57  
God Bless you and your pictures AND your patience, Dick!



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Gerald J.

05-04-2008 09:16:29




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
Did you check for ring end gap in the cylinders before you mounted the rings? Could be the ring gaps need some adjustment.

Did you check for piston clearance in the cylinders?

Gerald J.



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twopop

05-04-2008 08:49:10




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:37:09  
the pistons are probably not the problem,you may have a bearing locked up.back off the nuts on the rods one cylinder at a time and then see if the motor will turn.you could have a cap on wrong or a bearing that has slipped.



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Lanse

05-04-2008 08:52:42




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to twopop, 05-04-2008 08:49:10  
crank turns really easy, but its the piston that wont move in the cylender....



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DickL

05-04-2008 12:23:12




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:52:42  
Back to asking what the end gap was on the rings had before you put them on the pistons. also what the plastigage reading was on the rod journal.



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old

05-04-2008 09:06:18




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:52:42  
Lance take a quick trip to a part store etc and buy some STP oil treatment and wash that grease off the pistons and rings. Coat your hand with the STP and all the parts. The acid in your fingers can/will leave finger prints on parts if you don't coat you hands with it. I have used STP to put engine together for more years then you have been alive and always had good luck. You could also have the rods on 180 out and if you do the crank shaft will not turn once the rods are hook to the crank

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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:19:51




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to old, 05-04-2008 09:06:18  
so try rotating the pistons??



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old

05-04-2008 09:50:54




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:19:51  
Yes the rods only go on one way and if you have them 180 out things will not turn. BTDT



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Lanse

05-04-2008 10:18:13




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to old, 05-04-2008 09:50:54  
i'll try that. Thanks rich!



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DickL

05-04-2008 09:02:23




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:52:42  
Back to asking what the end gap was on the rings had before you put them on the pistons. also what the plastigage reading was on the rod journal.



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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:23:43




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to DickL, 05-04-2008 09:02:23  
how do you read the ring end gap?? There was no plastigauge reading, i forgot the get the damn stuff yesterday-so i got it ready for some. I cant do much else until the parts stores open tomorrow and i can get a pack of it



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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 09:26:53




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:23:43  
The ring end gap is read by putting a ring into the cylinder bore and measuring the gap between the end of the ring with a feeler gauge. If there is not enough gap the rings will bind in the cylinder and cause the pistons to stick.



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Dick L

05-04-2008 09:36:54




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:26:53  
Taking an apprenticeship in engine rebuilding on a talk board has to be most difficult at best. Every interested party has an opinion even if they never had this particular engine down. I think Lanse has done remarkably well for a 14 year old to keep up the desire under a very big task.



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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 09:47:31




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Dick L, 05-04-2008 09:36:54  
I agree Dick. I just wish he would arm himself a bit better in this battle. A manual would go a loooong way. I do admire his attempt, just remember my own failures at that age and sometimes wish someone would have pointed out the realities to me. It is obvious he is enrolled in the school of Hard Knocks. I applaud his attempt but do want him to realize where he is headed if he stays on the current path.

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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:40:00




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Dick L, 05-04-2008 09:36:54  
Thanks Dick!!! Its always harder to figure out what someones talking about then seeing it done.... And you have to start somewhere :-)



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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:30:17




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:26:53  
i diddnt measure it, but i stuck a ring in there and there was about 5/16" gap there



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Earl -IL

05-04-2008 09:55:06




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:30:17  
Lanse are you installing new rings on old pistons?If you are, you need to clean the carbon from the ring grooves. Did they drive in hard? Did you put 1 piston & rod in & then rotate? 5/16 end gap is the wrong rings.The spec would be around .005-.006 gap per inch of bore. What brand of engine are you rebuilding ? Is this the one with the bearing problem a few weeks ago? Allis ???? Take a deep breath we can help you. Earl

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Lanse

05-04-2008 10:20:12




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Earl -IL, 05-04-2008 09:55:06  
that was a rough estimate from before i compressed them. Its a 3 1/2 inch bore, so thats .015 to .020 or so, right



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Earl -IL

05-04-2008 10:48:32




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 10:20:12  
That would be in a new cyl. But for every .001 increase in bore or wear you will pickup .003-.004 in end gap. Hasting Piston Rings has a online catalog with all this info. What about my other questions?



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Lanse

05-04-2008 11:29:53




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Earl -IL, 05-04-2008 10:48:32  
thanks earl. Yes, i cleaned them using carb cleaner, a nail, part of an old ring, and a few paper towles and rags, and its an allis 4 cylender, the same one with the bearing issues. got new bearings tho



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Earl -IL

05-04-2008 12:30:05




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 11:29:53  
They make a tool called a piston ring groove cleaner. If you don't have a tool you can take a old ring & break it grind the end & make a cleaner using a small vise grip to hold the ring so you don't cut a hand.The groove needs to be perfectly clean. As your old rings would wear carbon would build behind the compression rings. The connecting rods used a .009 lamenated shim pack. Did you have a new shim pack to set your bearings up?

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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 09:19:13




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to DickL, 05-04-2008 09:02:23  
Save your breath Dick, he has no clue. The only way he will learn is to screw this tractor up so bad that he ruins something. It is sad he doesn't have anyone in his family to support and supervise him. I remember my first on my own, in the garage engine rebuild. It was a disaster my Uncle and cousin had to re do. If they had been there while I was doing it and pointed out a few things ...But i DID learn a bunch. like to NOT start a project I was unequipped to finish!

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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:24:42




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Uncle Ernie, 05-04-2008 09:19:13  
thanks ernie, thats really what i needed to hear



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Uncle Ernie

05-04-2008 09:39:53




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:24:42  
Just calling it the way I see it Lanse. I like your go to it attitude but it needs to be tempered with reason and knowledge. Do yourself a favor and get the correct shop manual for the tractor "Service Manual for Allis-Chalmers Model B &C Tractors" It has the answer to every question you have asked and pictures of most things. Then take EVERYTHING you have done to this point back apart. Sit down and read the ENTIRE manual. THEN start over from the beginning. Do you have a shop teacher or Ag teacher at school? Even if you are not in one of his classes go talk with him and tell him what you are doing. I bet you he will be glad to coach you on things. I really would like to see you complete this project and end up with a good running tractor but if you stay on the path you are on all you will end up with is frustration and a bad memory.
Sorry but that is how it looks from this side of the monitor screen... Good Luck my young friend!

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RCP

05-04-2008 09:00:51




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 08:52:42  
Lanse

I suggest that you wipe off the lithium grease from the pistons and rings, it is better to use engine oil, the lithium might result in stuck rings.
As far as you trouble turning the engine over, I suspect that what you are seeing is normal, when I rebuilt our Oliver 77 6 cylinder, I had it apart and together a couple of times for the same reason, and determined it was normal ring drag that will go away as the engine is broke in, and it did. But to be sure it would be a good idea to check the ring end gap on a couple of ring sets to be sure they are not too tight. Hopefully you have a manual, or data that came with the rings that tells you what the correct end gap is.

Good Luck
Rich

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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:27:14




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to RCP, 05-04-2008 09:00:51  
thanks, thats kind of what i was expeting. Im just glad that i diddnt break something or do anything else with the other pistons :-)



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garytomaszewski

05-04-2008 09:45:58




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:27:14  
Lanse, Slow down man you say you have a manual READ IT, it will tell you about ring gap. We have all followed this adventure from the start and tried to offer help from our experience but since you have no one to look over your shoulder YOU have to take the initative and READ THE MANUAL, AND!!! listen to the advice given!!! Where is the plastigage OH I forgot but I'm going ahead anyway. Patience, patience. This IS rocket science things have to go together right or it won't work.

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davpal

05-04-2008 09:34:53




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:27:14  
Lanse you may have the wrong bearings for the crank. I did this once with a Allis C and my cousin and I had a head scratching session over it. It was my fault. I miked the crank and read the readings wrong. Once we got the correct bearings in there she turned over very nice. I would take it back apart and remeasure all the ring end gaps and mike that crank and make sure you have the right bearings. Once you get it they run really well. Ours was a winning tractor puller when we got done!

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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:36:44




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to davpal, 05-04-2008 09:34:53  
thats enouraging!!, no the roda turn on the crank, and the crank turns in the block. Its definatially the piston sticking.



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Sloroll

05-04-2008 09:45:55




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:36:44  
Did you thoroughly clean the ring grooves?



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Lanse

05-04-2008 09:49:47




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Sloroll, 05-04-2008 09:45:55  
yep. used carb cleaner, an old ring, a nail and paper towles



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trucker40

05-04-2008 10:26:06




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to Lanse, 05-04-2008 09:49:47  
Inside of the ring groove is it down to metal all the way around the groove?If not its not clean enough.A little carbon in there can break a ring.When I tell you this stuff there is a reason,I probly messed it up myself and remember not to do that again.Its not fun to tear apart a motor again,and in my case it was on me when I had my shop,and fix something like that.



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Lanse

05-04-2008 11:31:51




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 Re: What now?!?! in reply to trucker40, 05-04-2008 10:26:06  
yes it is down to bare metal in there. A hard knocks graduate??? :-)



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