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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Dealer Service Department question

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M Nut

04-07-2008 17:02:27




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I need opinions! I took my 3500 Ford industrial tractor into the local Ford dealer because the hydraulics were not working well at all. Last week I took the pump off and went to see about a new one, and they said it was likely not the pump. They wanted to test the system first. I asked what that would cost, and the service manager said 1/2 hour labor and our rate is $62.00 per hour. I said so no more than $50.00 to test the system? yep. So I took the pump back home, put it on the tractor, and hauled the tractor into the dealer. Went to check on the test results this afternoon, and they said well the pump is shot, only putting out 500lbs of pressure. It took us 3 1/2 hours of labor to test it though, so your shop bill is a little over $200 so far. What!! You said less than $50. The reply was well the book said 1/2 hour labor, but things didn't go well so we can't go by that.
Now where do I go from here???? I can't afford to pay 4 times the estimated price on fixing this thing! So, I was now told the price was $1100 for a new pump, new oil, and the labor to install it. I'm just afraid the $1100 will turn into $2500 by the time it's all said and done.
What should I do???

Thanks for any advice.

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Brian Jasper co. Ia

04-08-2008 19:05:16




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Jose is right on. If they quoted no more than $50, that is all you should pay. If $50 wasn't going to cover their services, they should have called for approval. Thats the law in Iowa anyway.



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Mike (WA)

04-08-2008 08:38:05




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Why on earth would you even consider having them put a new pump on, since you have the ability to do it yourself? Your estimate of $2,500 for Fiasco #2 is probably pretty close. So google the pump make, or take it to a local hydraulic shop, or post a reply on here as to make and model of the pump, and I garr-on-tee you will find a pump for half what the dealer wants.

Always remember the old saying- "Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me!" My bad dealer experience occurred about 30 years ago ($115 for lube, oil and filter, and to replace a headlight, IN 1978, at my friendly Ford dealer!), and I haven't been back, to him or any other, except for minor parts. There are still good, honest local repair people who won't hose you.

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greygoat

04-08-2008 07:13:55




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
If you can take the pump off by yourself, you
should be able to take it apart to inspect for
wear, or dirt damage.
And, if replacing any pump, you should change the
fluid, and flush the system, if possible, or the
dirt-debris-metal particles that caused the old
pump to fail can wipe out a new one quickly.



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chvet73

04-07-2008 21:24:23




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Don't pay one cent past the estimate. Allen and Jose have it right. Then get your tractor out of there.



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RodInNS

04-07-2008 21:15:22




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
First of all, if they're using the same Ford time books that I once looked at, I'm not at all surprised at the 1/2 hour specified turned into 3.5 hours. Keep in mind that Ford warranty claims were based on those books.... and they wern't going to pay a nickle in shop time that they didn't have to pay. If the book said 1/2 an hour you could flat out double that. You'd need to be very experienced and working in optimal conditions to do things as fast as the book said.
Nuff on that...

So did they explain exactly why the pump was bad? My inclination would be to suggest either a relief valve, flwo control valve, or unloading valve if you're dealing with the main pump on that tractor. If it's the front pump then perhaps the relief....
I mean, if the pump is so loose that it only makes 500 psi, how is it even priming itself? Long story short, I don't quite buy the bad pump theory.

So... I'd challenge them on that. I'd challenge them on exactly what they checked to determine that the pump was bad and why exactly it took so long. Argue until the bill comes down to something you can stomach, pay it, leave and don't go back.

Rod

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JRT

04-07-2008 18:39:37




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Here is the advise I would give you. GET YOUR TRACTOR OUT OF THAT PLACE---THEY WILL RIP YOU OFF. I went through something like that last summer with my square hay baler at a New Holland dealership. A quoted 400.00 job turned into a 1200.00 job and they still did not fix it. When I tried to talk to the manager about sending a mechanic out to the field where they could look at what it was doing, he flately refused. He finally told me "now look here, that old baler of yours is worn out and we are not going to put any more time in it. This was after I had paid the bill. I finally found a retired baler mechanic to come to the field and fix it to where it now bales perfectly. He charged me 200.00. I tried to take them to small claims court but I got nowhere with that. You just can't beat those guys so the best thing you can do is STAY AWAY FROM THEM. I got the last laugh however. About a month ago, the company went belly up. I predicted they would. No company can operate with an A-HOLE SOB for a manager.

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135 Fan

04-07-2008 23:40:33




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to JRT, 04-07-2008 18:39:37  
You can beat the dealers if you want to. A letter to editor of a local newspaper or even better a farm related flyer. If the local TV station has a trouble shooter, the dealer could be exposed on TV for everyone to see. No dealer can charge you for not fixing what they were paid to fix. I had problems with the rebuilt engine in my Cat. I had to take it back out. They fixed it with a new oil pump no charge. The engine had to come out again cause it used too much oil. I paid $300 to get it to them and back but they tore it down and honed it with new rings and bearings and also removed it and reinstalled it for no charge. I was a little ticked they didn't help me take it out but they said if they would have originally removed it, then they would have pulled it back out. They could only warrantee the actual work they did. The second time the engine came out, they did it. I probably cost them a couple thousand dollars or more but I would go back to them. They looked after me and stood by their work. My machine was just a rare case of wierd things happening. This company has been around for a long time because they have customer service. Sadly it's hard to find anymore. Dave

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Lanse

04-07-2008 20:22:44




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to JRT, 04-07-2008 18:39:37  
local deere dealer, boones, got us for $5000 on what should have been a $3000 machine in 2005 when we got it. Have avoided them like the plague, found a real dealer 20 mins away, much, much better. They never even delivered the right mower, ours doesnt even have the upgraded engine we paid for in it.



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M Nut

04-07-2008 18:26:06




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Thanks Guys, I was thinking just like you, especially Allan and Wayne. I guess I'll go in tomorrow, talk to the manager again, pay what I have to to get my tractor back and take it home. I think I'll even buy my pump somewhere else.I have another dealer 50 miles east and another 50 miles west I can order parts through. Just hate it when I try and do business locally and end up getting totally ripped off.

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Mike M

04-07-2008 18:10:16




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Here's another thought. I bet if they quoted you $200 and it only took $50 they sure as heck would not of lowered the bill !!!



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Mike M

04-07-2008 18:05:30




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Live by the book die by the book ! If they are quoting estimates from the book they better stick to it. When I quoted an estimate I'd look in the book for a guide then go about 3 or 4 times ? that and come alot closer to what it really takes. I never charged that much an hour either. Guess that's why I didn't get rich like these dealers.



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NCWayne

04-07-2008 17:42:02




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
Being independent dad and I hear stuff like that all the time. We don't have any books to tell us how long a job should take so we always make a best guess based on the current situation as well as past experiences. We then and only them give a best estimate on that guess. We also let the customer know it's only a guess and estimate, and that there is nothing concrete about it. I'll admit I've been wrong before and it took longer to do something than I estimated, especially if it was something on a machine I wasn't familiar with or something I was doing for the first time, but 7 times longer for something simple like this is, in my opinion, a bit of a bit of a stretch. In this case I can't believe this is their first time checking pressure on a 3500 Industrial tractor so I don't understand their excuse about it taking 7 times longer than the book said. Usually the way the rate books are done they typically give extra time so the dealership can make a little off the "flat rate" by doing the job faster and still charging flat rate. Now if they had bolts that were rusted and broke off in a fitting, or something along those lines, and they had to remove them I could maybe see a little longer for that but not 3.5 hrs, I've had that happen myself. Baring something extreem like that I still can't understand why it would take more than 30 minutes to test the hydraulic pressure on just about any machine out there. Most all machines with hydraulic system, even many of the older ones, have test ports built into the system somewhere, and for the ones that don't it's not usually that hard to tap into a line somewhere. From there you basically stall out the portion of the system your testing either with the machines implements or a flow meter if you've got one, to get the pressure. Personally I'd tell them I wanted their time itemized and further that I'd like to see the proceedure as laid out in the shop manual. If it's something really complicated and they can physically show you why it took so long I'd pay the bill, otherwise I'd call them a bunch of cheating SOB's and raise he!! til the situation was resolved to my satisfaction. Beyond that if the pump is indeed bad there's not much you can do about that but suck it up and buy a new one. You've already had the old one off and put it back yourself so I'd be dammed if I'd let them change it for you. Based on the 700% increase the first time you'd be lucky if it you over $7000 by the time they get done.

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Allan In NE

04-07-2008 17:30:53




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
That is not how it works.

If the book says 1/2 hour the charge should be 1/2 hour. I don't care if it takes 'em 30 hours to do the job.

I would pay their silly rate to get my tractor back, take it, leave, never go back and tell everyone I know/anyone who will listen about this shoddy practice and this poor excuse for a shop.

They want you to pay cash for their ineptness. They should not be in business.

Allan

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Vern-MI

04-08-2008 05:10:35




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to Allan In NE, 04-07-2008 17:30:53  
Too bad we can't apply those same operating principles or business ethics to doctors, dentists, lawyers, and politicians.



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jose bagge

04-07-2008 17:25:32




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
A dealership is required to give you an initial estimate in writing, which they are obligated to get additional approvals on if it is exceded by 10%. They should have had you sign something before they took custody of your tractor.
You should be charged book time, regardless of how long their boob took to do the job.
I am sure that the motorvehicle repair laws of your state governing estimates apply to tractors as well- ask for the Service Manager, state your case and get him to credit the additional labor to the cost of the part, take the whole mess home and fix it yourself. If the Serv Mgr won't listen, call your county/state Dept of Consumer Affairs.

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Bruce Hopf

04-07-2008 17:13:28




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
I know that the book says 1/2 hour to do the job. Its not your fault, or the books fault that it took 3 1/2 hours to do the job. I wuold get the dealerships owner involved. If they go by book rate, the should be able to only charge you book rate, not how long it takes some apprenticed mechanic, woops, there not mechanics any more, apprenticed technission to do the job.



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Lanse

04-07-2008 17:07:23




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to M Nut, 04-07-2008 17:02:27  
If would ask them to include that in the cost of the pump. If it were my dealership, i would appoligize and pay part of the difference myself.



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135 Fan

04-07-2008 17:31:21




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 Re: Dealer Service Department question in reply to Lanse, 04-07-2008 17:07:23  
I'd agree with that. They should have phoned you. If a dealer goes by the book rate, they go by the book rate. A good mechanic can make the dealer extra money. They can't go by the book rate only when they benefit and then go by hourly charge when that suits them. That sounds totally absurd. If you get them to fix it, get the testing charge either included or for the half hour, $30, or so they quoted you. Is there another dealer that could fix it? If you don't get any satisfaction go to the general manager and if that doesn't help, you could contact consumer affairs and the local better business bureau. That's rediculous. If if was 10 or $20 more because you had other accessories that had to come off or something, wouldn't be bad. 3 1/2 hour charge for a 1/2 hour estimate? That way too extreme not to call you. Dave

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