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OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start...

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 10:08:46

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It's an old 5HP Montgomery Ward garden tiller, and it just will not start. The spark plug is new, and it is full of gas and has fresh oil and a new air filter as of last year. It worked fine when we put it away for winter. The problem seems to be that there is no gas getting to the spark plug (if you pull the plug, the chamber under it is dry... There is no smell of gas). Is it safe for me to pull the air filter (which sits on top of the choke) and give it a spray of carb cleaner and let it sit for a bit, and then to try and start it? Or perhaps something is plugged up in the fuel line?

I've never taken one of these apart, and I'd say it's fairly old... At least 20-30 years old. Any ideas on where to start?

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Will Herring

04-08-2008 21:32:07

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Is there anything that is dangerous to do or that I should absolutely AVOID doing?

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dave guest

04-08-2008 21:08:09

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Starter fluid in spark plug hole. May only run 10 seconds. Tells you that valves are not stuck open and compression and fire is OK>

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Old Roy agiin

04-07-2008 20:58:00

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Does it have a gravity feed carb. on it? [I'm trying to type this lightly so no one else can see it because, I don't need anybody to know I forgot to turn the gas back on after forgetting I turned it off in the fall.]Boy did I feel dumb!!.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 18:18:34

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Yeah, my family has two of these old white and orange jobbies. Unfortunately one of them made an early trip to the scrap heap (I think the tines are still sitting in one of our "scrap metal" piles), and maybe a few components are left... But yeah, this is the only one that still works. It's a beast when it runs, but I recall having to replace a belt on it about 5 years back and that was a pain. And each year it becomes harder and harder to start.

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paul sebek

04-07-2008 17:59:03

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

It needs a new diaphragm, they tend to get hard and shrink after a few years which create sealing problems, it often shows up as starting problems. The carbs sometimes also warp causing seal issues.

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jose bagge

04-07-2008 17:36:39

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

pull the air cleaner and shoot some starter fluid into it...if it doesn't fire, you have an ignition issue. pull the recoil starter and make sure the flywheel magnet is rust free, then turn it under the mag and make sure you only have about a matchbook of gap between the two. hang the pull cord back on, hold the plug wire in your hand and give it a pull. If you didn't get zapped, you have a points problem- probably a spiderweb in it. You can pull the flywheel and clean/replace the points, or (better) get the little electronic ignition module kit for it and forget about the points forever.

If it DID fire when you gave it starter fluid, follow everyoe elses carb suggestions. Diaphram that pull fuel from the tanl is probably gummed up.

Wards musta sold a million of those orange and white muvas- seems like there's been one in my family since i was old enough to get out of the way of one.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 15:37:20

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

So you're thinking it won't start on 1/2 tank of gas, like it has, and I should fill it up first... Hmmm...

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Ray

04-07-2008 14:04:48

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Give it a shot of starting fluid,works every time.

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olddog

04-07-2008 13:54:33

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

On B & S engines with the carb mounted on top of the gas tank, the fuel pump is the diaphragm that is also the gasket between the two. It pumps up from a well down into the tank. The well has an opening up top to keep full. Gasoline evaporates and the well goes dry. When first starting one, after sufficient time to evaporate the fuel in the well, fill the tank and...
Shake the %#@(*@^& out of the motor. This slops enough gas into the well to prime with the bulb or choke.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 13:02:24

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

I suppose it is also possible that the vent cap on the gas tank may be plugged and that is causing there to be no gas flow into the engine? Can I run a needle or a pin through it to clear it out?

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 12:54:54

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Unsure about how fresh gasoline is... Probably last year. I just did a bunch of upkeep to it last year after about five years of neglect and had it running really good. I am unsure how the entire fuel/carb assembly works on this thing. It's one of the old tiller models that the tines drag it through the dirt and all the drive belts hide behind the motor beneath a sheet metal shield. The thing is a complete beast to use. After about two hours of tilling the home garden I feel like I've put in an 8 hour day. Anyway, I'll give this stuff a shot and see what happens next time I am out at the shed.

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Wayne from MN

04-07-2008 12:38:54

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Is the gasoline FRESH? Old gas will not fire up easily.
The carb could be gummed up since the last time. Put a teaspoon of FRESH gasoline in the spark plug hole and try starting the engine. If it fires & runs for a moment, the problem is fuel related. If no results, lack of spark is the likely problem; if the engine has points & condenser, you may have to clean the points to get rid of the corrosion. Check the easy things first.
I have repaired hundreds of them in the past so contact me if you need more info.

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Gene-AL

04-07-2008 12:11:21

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Will,
I won't pull & pull & pull on a small engine...
What works for me on small engines which have sat for a long time is:
1) Turn the main mixture screw at the bottom of the carburator bowl OUT about 1/4 turn (if it has one).
2) Remove spark plug and put about a teaspoon of gas in the cylinder. Replace plug.
Set controls for normal cold starting.

Most will start right up on the first or 2nd pull.

Reset mixture screw after it warms up for smooth running (about half way between smokey-loping and lean-sputtering) at medium throttle.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 11:43:37

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Also, the consensus is that carb cleaner (just a quick spray) is safe, but starting fluid is a bad idea, yes? All I have is a can of carb cleaner, anyway.

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04-07-2008 10:55:20

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

You can use carb cleaner to prime it, do not use compresion in a can (starting fluid), you can blow the head off these little aluminum engines if you put too much in it. Sounds like you need to clean and rebuild carb. I would take the plug out, lay it on the head, see if it has any fire also. I would also spend $3.00 and put a new plug in it, that seams to be the biggest failure we deal with, bad plug.
Jim

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Vern-MI

04-07-2008 10:54:10

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

I had a Rally tiller that would do that. The fix for me was to take the air cleaner off and put a cap full of gas right down into the intake. Once it started to run it would continue to run for that season. I don't know what was sticking but the initial start would this gas primer usually shook it loose so it would continue to run.

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rhouston

04-07-2008 10:33:48

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

I have a 5 horse Briggs on a seldom used log splitter. This is one of the models that has the carb on top of the gas tank with the fuel bowl being part of the tank. It has a terrible time filling the fuel bowl when dry. I have removed the carb and filled the bowl by hand. Filling the gas tank very full may also get the gas into the fuel bowl. I suspect it needs a carb rebuild. Once it is running it does not seem to have any issues with keeping the fuel bowl filled just the initial filling when it has set for long periods.

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RayP(MI)

04-07-2008 14:09:12

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to rhouston, 04-07-2008 10:33:48

I had one of those too. Those carbs were a nightmare.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 11:42:17

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to rhouston, 04-07-2008 10:33:48

rhouston said: (quoted from post at 10:33:48 04/07/08) I have a 5 horse Briggs on a seldom used log splitter. This is one of the models that has the carb on top of the gas tank with the fuel bowl being part of the tank. It has a terrible time filling the fuel bowl when dry. I have removed the carb and filled the bowl by hand. Filling the gas tank very full may also get the gas into the fuel bowl. I suspect it needs a carb rebuild. Once it is running it does not seem to have any issues with keeping the fuel bowl filled just the initial filling when it has set for long periods.

Yes, this model is one with a metal gas tank where the fuel bowl is above the tank, and the air filter sits above that. Since the air filter is oil-soaked, I am figuring that a bit may have seeped into the fuel bowl and plugged it up. I figure a quick spray of carb cleaner and it should fire right up and hopefully jar the thing loose. The spark plug is good, though.

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Will Herring

04-07-2008 10:33:30

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Allrighty, sounds good to me. Thanks.

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Chris(WA)

04-07-2008 10:24:26

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Will Herring, 04-07-2008 10:08:46

Take the plug out and let it sit on the head(against bare metal) where you can see the electrode(don't get your face TOO close). Give it a pull and watch for spark at the gap. Good spark? Put the plug back in then take the air filter off and give it just a breath of WD-40 or starting fluid. Then give it a pull right away. If it pops or runs a bit its a fuel problem. Probably need to take the carb apart and clean it out.

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Bill Tom

04-07-2008 12:07:31

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Re: OT - Can't get old 5HP Garden Tiller to start... in reply to Chris(WA), 04-07-2008 10:24:26

Will, The propane propellant that was in wd-40 was removed about 10 years ago due to an accident.We used it daily to start engines till then.Don't think the new stuff will fire up as readily. Use starter fluid or a little bit of gas. As Chris said if it tries to take off and dies then it's due for a carb rebuild.

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