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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT French Drain vs Swales

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Kevin in OK

04-02-2008 19:37:47




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We've been having minor runoff problems near our barn that I've been meaning to fix for a while now. It might have been more pressing if we had more than a dirt floor. We have decided to put in gravel to control dust, but we want to get this little water problem fixed before we get to work.

We have rainwater on the uphill side wash up against the barn and either seeps in or finds its way in somehow, and leaves little ruts in the barn floor right where we park the tractor. The uphill face of the barn is roughly 30 feet wide. I've been reading on solutions for this, mainly French Drains. while that is a possibility, it would mean a lot of work, even for a relatively short drain. I've also read if you mess it up or it needs work that it can be a nightmare.

Recently I read in an old landscaping book that swales will also work for minor water problems. That would be much easier to work with, but I doubt its effectiveness.

Any insight into this subject is appreciated.

Thanks

Kevin

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DiyDave

04-03-2008 15:39:34




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
Swales are the best bet. Gutters are nice, as long as the roof is not facing the afternoon sun, in the wintertime. If it is you will see what a sheet of ice, sliding down a pitched roof can do to your gutters!



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Leroy

04-03-2008 16:47:40




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to DiyDave, 04-03-2008 15:39:34  
What is a french drain? And a swail should have grass with no worrys of washing out if properly installed.



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Bob Kerr

04-03-2008 10:13:26




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
I had that problem on a pole barn I used but didn"t own. Every spring the ground would thaw a little and cause the barn dirt floor to turn into mud soup, everything inside would sink 6" or more. area was pretty flat but did have a very gradual slope amounting to a few inches per 50 ft. I would have liked to put gutters on but the owners wouldn"t do it, so I asked permission to dig shallow ditches. I went along the "uphill side" and brought it around to the downhill side and then out to the low point in the barn lot(old hog wallow from 50 years ago) and then on out into the field for overflow if it came to that. I did take it close to the siding to catch that water. The ditch was very slightly tapered so it wasn"t like dropping down in a hole if I drove across it, just a gentle dip. I used the back blade on an old Ferguson tractor and had it done in less than couple hours total with the final clean out done with a shovel. The barn floor really needed to be filled in some from getting packed down over the years, but that won"t help much if the ground is allowed to get saturated around it. I left the ditch open. All said and done just cost me a couple gallons of gas and less than 2 hours and it helped a bunch! if it was my building I would have put perf tile down and gutters with adapeters for the down spouts to go into the tile and ran that to the low point but that would have just cost more money.

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Gerald J.

04-03-2008 09:08:12




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
Build the French Drain. And put the inner edge under the siding. When the wind is blowing towards that barn face there can be as much rain from the siding as from the roof.

I did that for mine on the door side and driving over the drain has not seemed to have wrecked it. I dug maybe a foot deep, but sloping and tapered it a good three feet wide. I lined it with sturdy plastic (I used roofing bitumen underlayment, the stuff you use to prevent ice dams from leaking through the roof edge), I put in a 4" perforated drain tile, and I filled with 3/4" clean limestone. Sand and fines tend to plug it up. That 3/4" clean (expensive!) doesn't pack or plug.

The barn floor remains dry.

Gerald J.

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RayP(MI)

04-03-2008 05:30:24




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
Put a french drain in around front of our house. Works great, solved a long time water seeping into basement problem. Cut a sloped trench from wall outward, lined with plastic. Installed slotted plastic drain line. Backfilled with sand and gravel. Covered with layer of sod.



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Jlmtractor

04-03-2008 04:21:56




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
it all depends on what you are doing around the barn if you are trying to grow grass and trying to get it to look perty around your barn a swale isnt the way to go. In my opinion french drain is just the better way to go. the swale will never look perfect it will always have little washouts just because it is open soil and the rain will wash it out. but hey what ever you want to do it I were you i would just do french drain and be done with it

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Cummins 1955

04-03-2008 03:38:51




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
Does the barn have Gutters? If rain from the roof runs there it might be easier to install gutters.



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PaulW_NJ

04-03-2008 04:05:51




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Cummins 1955, 04-03-2008 03:38:51  

Cummins 1955 said: (quoted from post at 03:38:51 04/03/08) Does the barn have Gutters? If rain from the roof runs there it might be easier to install gutters.


I agree. Gutters are the single most important first step. I have a bank barn which had that problem on the top side. We put in a concrete floor (4 inch concrete over 4 inch crushed stone) with a French drain around the back side wall. Problem is that the foundation (perhaps 200 yrs old) is dry stacked rock, so water quickly washed silt down into the sections of the French drain, clogging it. Gutters make a huge difference in diverting the water to the sides, but I still need to better bank the topside to prevent water from returning to the foundation. With so much roof area, you collect a huge amount of water, and you've got to get everything just right to be successful.

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mike

04-03-2008 02:08:19




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
put in french drain 10 yrs ago, 60 ft by 3 ft deep. works good most of the time. Torrential rains overwhelm it. Was a good choice for us, I'd use it again. Filled bottom of trench w/ field stone and top ft w/cobbles



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tiresntracks

04-02-2008 22:12:28




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
French drains plug up if you drive over them or if mud washes into them. If you don't have either of those problems it should work fine.



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T-Rev

04-02-2008 20:41:31




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 19:37:47  
Run a slightly sloped french drain with a field tile inside along the uphill side, and outlet it to the downhill. In other words run a 3' deep trench with a very slight downward slope, make it 8" wide with a 4" perforated tile along the bottom and backfill to surface with loose gravel, #8 or similiar.

Without being too complicated it'd be the equivalent of road underdrain. Is this on the non-door side of the barn, meaning heavy equipment won't frequently pass over it? This idea seems like it'll work.

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Kevin in OK

04-02-2008 21:11:12




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to T-Rev, 04-02-2008 20:41:31  
No, the doors are on the downhill side.

How far away should the drain be from the building? Being a pole barn, is there a chance that digging too close could disturb the poles?

I know that it's best for the water to come to the surface, but there isn't much hill to work with for the outlet. Any suggestions, short of putting in an underground storage area for controlled soil absorbtion or something?

Would it be best to just use Round-up or extra gravel and do a little dirt work to make the external water outlet?

Kevin

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T-Rev

04-03-2008 06:05:19




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to Kevin in OK, 04-02-2008 21:11:12  
As far as getting the water to the surface: You could make the trench much more shallow if you aren't going to drive equipment over it. The poles should be fine anyway, if you're less than a few feet deep. If you don't have gutters, could you locate your french drain right under the drip line of the barn roof? So that the roof water would fall straight into the trench, make it a little wider to catch it all. You'd have to hand dig it, but that close to the barn you could probably shallow it to 1' deep, with no worry about ever driving equipment over it. Heck, just slope the dirt you dig out between the drain and the barn to further ensure the water stays out of the barn if you want. Make sure you do get the water to the surface, it can be a very slight slope if needed.

Just my ideas, take them with a grain of salt.

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T-Rev

04-03-2008 06:21:02




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to T-Rev, 04-03-2008 06:05:19  
You could dig a little swale to bring the water to the surface, and put some 4 to 6" field stones in it to keep it from washing out. That way you won't have to extend your tile out past the downhill side of the barn and then be running equipment over it or having a tile with 1" of cover.
Do you feel like mud getting into the stone will be a problem? Does grass grow well and not wash out currently up hill of the proposed trench spot? I guess I'm envisioning the rutting at the barn where it flattens out suddenly, not leading up to it.

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T-Rev

04-02-2008 20:46:04




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 Re: OT French Drain vs Swales in reply to T-Rev, 04-02-2008 20:41:31  
This would be just as easy or easier to do. Shouldn't need maintenance, swales wash out.



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