Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Water-Methanol boost

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
GeneMO

03-19-2008 15:35:57




Report to Moderator

I have heard lots about "power fuel" , distilite, burning kerosene, etc. during the war due to gas shortages.

I am reading a book about the "Marianas Turkey shoot" in WWII. A fighter pilot in an F6F hellcat is chasing an enemy plane. Here is what the book says, " Dean, eager for another kill, shoved the throttle through "the gate": He pushed the lever past the safety-wire stop on the quadrant, engaging the water-methanol mixture that boosted his engine's power. The water injection feature added two hundred horsepower to the usual two thousand, accelerating the big Grumman beyound normal performance. It was good for only five minutes: Afterward, the Pratt & Whitney would begin to burn itself out.

Sorry for the long post, but thought this was interesting as this is technology that was invented when the H and M Farmalls were in their heyday.

Why are we not using this today? Not to the extreme that we burn out the engine, but maybe to squeeze more performance out of our gas?


Gene

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
dej(jed)

03-20-2008 05:17:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Engines love oxygen. The normal engine intake scenario can never supply enough oxygen for a complete fuel burn. Air is only about 18% oxygen.
Enrich that by means of porting or a super charger and you will get a better running engine.
Methanol is an OH configuration , while water has a 2H20 structure. Oxygen and hydrogen do wonders for combustion.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John S-B

03-20-2008 05:53:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to dej(jed), 03-20-2008 05:17:35  
Air is about 21% Oxygen, most of the rest is Nitrogen. You need at least 19% to function normally. Over 24% is not good either, it increases fire danger.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-20-2008 06:14:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to John S-B, 03-20-2008 05:53:52  
Sorry dej(jed) but that"s only partially correct. As some pp have stated. The water alcohol injection allows the supercharger boost to be increased without the engine suffering from detonation. The methanol richens the mixture which also increases detonation resistance. The proper amount of water absorbs enough heat during the compression stroke to prevent the air/fuel mixture from reaching it auto ignition temp. Jets use water injection to absorb heat and limit power turbine inlet temps. The water injection tends to steam clean soot, dirt and deposites from the engines.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dej(jed)

03-20-2008 06:39:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to buickanddeere, 03-20-2008 06:14:22  
Okay, I stand corrected. I should have specified that I was referring to conventional gasoline and diesel engines. I really haven't worked much around Jet engines.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-20-2008 13:04:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to dej(jed), 03-20-2008 06:39:35  
Atmospheric air is 20.9% oxygen no matter what the altitude/pressure. H2O is H2O not H2O2 Water injected into a combustion chamber does not breakdown into it"s base chemical elements of Hydrogen & oxygen. It stayed bonded real tight. In anycase the injected water is to lower temps in and after the combustion chamber.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
dej(jed)

03-21-2008 04:51:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to buickanddeere, 03-20-2008 13:04:41  
Hey I said I would give you teh jet engine info, but now I don't agree! Compounds most certainly do break down when they ignite. Where do you think CO2, CO, SO, SO2 and Nox comes from? They are the bi products of combustion. No one put them in the fuel in that form. Also water is 2H20 you can't have H20, it would be chemically unstable. Yes, alcohol does cool, but it also is burnt as Hydrogen & Oxygen. At least that is what they taught us at Ohio State.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
garytomaszewski

03-21-2008 18:06:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to dej(jed), 03-21-2008 04:51:43  
Ohio State, Should have known. Water in a real University chem101 class IS H2O, most encyclopedias, or even wikipedia confirms this. Oxygen does NOT burn, it promotes OXIDATION(chemical bonding).



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

03-21-2008 13:18:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to dej(jed), 03-21-2008 04:51:43  
CO, CO2, NOX, SO2 AND H2O are formed from combustion/oxidization. How are you splitting water apart in a combustion chamber then turning around and re-combining it into water??? All the water is doing is absorbing btu"s of heat when flashing into steam. This limits the max temps in the combustion chamber. The carbon and hydrogen in the alcohol bonds with oxygen, give soff heat and turns into CO2, H2O and a little CO. On it"s own alcohol burns too cool to heat N2 and make NOX as a by product of the heat/free oxygen and nitrogen under heat/pressure.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
sd pete

03-19-2008 19:07:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Way back in the late 60"s and early 70"s I was in 2 Navy EC 121 squadrons. And we used it on take off to help keep the cylinder temp down. Those R3350"s could squirt a lot of fuel and water and alky mix on take off.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
KIP in MX

03-19-2008 18:35:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Not piston engine related, but we used to have Bell 206L helicopters in the late 70īs with Allison C-20 turbine engines that had a 3 gallon water/methanol tank. When the pilot was taking off, the engine would reach turbine outlet temp limits before he reached torque requirments, so pilot hit water/methanol switch and injected the mixture into compressor inlet for a few seconds. This dropped temperature enough to pull another 5-10% torque. Mixture was 3 parts water to one part methanol.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MarkB_MI

03-19-2008 18:32:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Nothing stopping you from using it today. It's just a means of preventing detonation in a supercharged or turbocharged engine. It's the supercharger that boosts the power, although there is some energy provided by the methanol.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gene Dotson

03-19-2008 18:01:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
The water injection (anti-detonation injection) was used to prevent the engine from destroying itself. The only purpose of the alcohol was to prevent freezing at altitude. Normal mixture was 70/30 in summer and 60/40 in winter.
The supercharger was capable of producing more boost than the engine could handle at full military power so water was injected to retard initial pressure buildup that will cause detonation. the five minute limitation was that was the capacity of the ADI tank.
The increase in power is due to the fact that water turned to staem actually has a higher pressure increase than burning gasoline... Gene

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
garytomaszewski

03-19-2008 17:18:09




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
One of the explainations I got was; Water has an infinity octane rating, also fills volume and raises compression;but "high" octane=no detonation. Try looking at high performance tractor pulls on Youtube, when they are winding up before launch the diesel cloud goes from black to grey, that is from water injection.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
T_Bone

03-19-2008 17:02:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Hi Gene,

I know they talk about it over on thedeiselstop.com for running at the drags on diesel engines. Like your article pointed out, it's only used for a short boost of HP when wound tight.

Too much of a good thing is not good for any engine. I never seen a engine torn down that ran meth/h2o so I really don't know.

T_Bone



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
greenbeanman in Kans

03-19-2008 16:19:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to GeneMO, 03-19-2008 15:35:57  
Part of the problem with using the technology today is that carrying the weight of the water for combustion aid may negate benefit.

Also, water freezes.

I would also question what water would do to the engine long term even with pushing the so called limits.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jon Hagen

03-19-2008 16:38:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to greenbeanman in Kans, 03-19-2008 16:19:36  
Water injection to allow more power with low octane fuel was in use in the 1920's. A good example would be a steel wheel, flywheel start D John Deere feeding water from the over size top radiator tank into the intake so the engine could pull at full power on low octane distillate fuel.

Over the last 30 years or so I have seen bubbler type alcohol / water injectors that evaporate a bit of Water / alcohol mix and introduce it into the intake manifold of the engine. In theory the evaporating mix will lower the intake air temp for a dense air mix, plus making the fuel air mix a little less apt to detonate with high compression and more ignition advance.

Any of you remember the Olds 215 turbocharged engine of the early 60's ? They used a water / alcohol injection system to fight full throttle detonation, when the engine was at max turbo boost. The fluid used was an alcohol / water mix, much like modern windsheild washer fluid which would not freeze in cold weather

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gene Davis (Ga.)

03-19-2008 19:13:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-19-2008 16:38:17  
Hot Rod magazine hadan article on building a system for use like this. They used a windshield washer pump set up with a vacuum operated switch I think and a rheostat to control the delivery rate into a nozzle made from a windshield washer nozzle pinched down somehow.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Methanol

03-19-2008 18:00:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Water-Methanol boost in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-19-2008 16:38:17  
Methanol burns a lot cooler and makes better HP. It also makes a high performance engine last longer because of running cooler. That's why sprint cars, drag cars and monster trucks, etc. use it. Aircraft used technology that was way ahead of other industries. Especially in regards to engines.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy