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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters

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in-too-deep

02-28-2008 13:29:20




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Looking for experience on tankless water heaters in commercial settings. Thinking about putting a unit in to run a camp and retreat center commercial kitchen that feeds up to 150 people at one time (but usually less). Our 2 50 gal. tanks are leaking really bad and we want to go a new direction. I don't need brand suggestions, just practical experience or know-how. Manufacturers, dish washer service guy, and my math tells me the capacity will be taken care of. I won't spill all the specifics right now 'cause there's just too many. Thoughts are welcome. Thanks!

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dave2

02-29-2008 00:42:47




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
With the prices of fuel, you may want to take a second look at electric ones (quite a bit cheaper for the unit that gas also). Things are a little different here, I know, but these heaters are pretty common. I have electric models. One that runs the house (hot water to the sinks, shower, tub, etc) is about 12"x18"x6" deep and hangs on the wall. Heats up right away and gets water burn you hot. There is only me and the wife, so the most that would ever be is 2 faucets on at the same time. For the barn/outside sink, I have one that is about 6x6x3" that does the same thing just with a slower output (10 liter per minute). There are bigger systems, but these work for our purposes (issue 14 liter per minute).
Thing here though, washing machines and dishwashers heat their own water so industrial strength is not an issue. One thing I found over the years of redoing an old house, people are real proud of their products especially when they are an "upgrade".
Hope you find a good solution.

Dave

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Hiram Wells

02-28-2008 16:13:54




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
I put in a Renai unit. Yes, the $1400 sounds about right. I used the double wall pipe. Only thing you have to think through is the length of run for the pipe. Instruction manuel tells you how far you can run and gives specs for how much to count for a 90 degree bend in pipe etc. Flowing 10 gal/minute. Set at 120 and use dishwasher to bump up additional 20 degrees. No complaints. Use a certified installer, or warranty void.

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Jim Johnson

02-28-2008 15:39:30




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
Well we talked to our plumber and for the cost it didn't seem to pan out. The other thing I didn't like was having to do a flush or a cleaning every so often that I figured I'd forget about. If you are using a lot of water it doesn't seem like it would be that good of a deal. But what do I know?

Jim



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sbin

02-28-2008 14:42:03




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
The bigger tankless water heaters use alot of gas on demand so your gas lines need to be sized correctly and the exhaust needs to be stainless steel.
I just installed a commercial Takagi unit which can be configured in multiples units to flow higher water volume and controlled from single remote remote.
Great product,energy efficient but higher price to install.



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in-too-deep

02-28-2008 14:44:59




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to sbin, 02-28-2008 14:42:03  
Yup, calls for 3/4" gas line, and that's what I've got. I like the fact that it can vary the intensity of the flame, sometimes it'll use 20,000 BTU and sometime 180,000 depending on demand. I'm groaning about the price of the venting, but you can't really cheat on that. Luckily I don't have real far to go. Thanks for the reply.



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sbin

02-28-2008 14:55:12




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 14:44:59  
I bought a Takagi tm1 from ebay for $600.It was installed in a restaruant that went out of business after a few months.We have used it for 8 months and really like it with the exception of small flow usage like washing hands.Your done washing by the time hot water kicks in.
The unit will flow up to 9.6 gpm at a 40F deg. increase.
The stainless exhaust venting can be expensive.I sourced the 4" single wall pipe from a commercial steel shop that fabricated the longer lengths I needed for a great price.

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in-too-deep

02-28-2008 15:01:57




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to sbin, 02-28-2008 14:55:12  
That's real good idea about the venting...except the once I want to buy requires the double wall "concentric" venting. Draw combustion air through the outside chamber and blows exhaust through the center chamber. I haven't shopped around for price on that yet though.



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don br

02-28-2008 14:16:38




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
too deep
I am in the car wash business and I run the tankless water heaters.I run the largest units that paloma makes.But I had to have one heater for each bay.They will only flow about 5 gallons per minute,and that also depends on your incoming water pressure.You need to check the gallons per minute for the heater.If your useing a lot of water at once you might notice a drop in pressure.



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in-too-deep

02-28-2008 14:42:20




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to don br, 02-28-2008 14:16:38  
You're exactly the kinda person I wanted to talk to. How long have you had your heaters? Complaints so far? Our biggest demand is going to be the low-temp dishwasher - needs 140 degree water at 1.5 gallons per minute, plus dish sprayer at 1.6 gpm. Have you heard anything about Rennai heaters? That's what I'm wanting. I'd love to chat with you more and I really appreciate your input. Thanks Don!



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Don Br

02-29-2008 03:59:24




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 14:42:20  
I have had the heaters(6 of them) 9 years now.Have had to change out a diaphram in the water intake valve on a few of them(fairly simple)and replace the heat exchanger(coil the water flows through) on a couple of them.You can imagine the use they get every day at a very busy carwash.I have heard of the Rennai heaters but I don't really know anything about them.I am sure they are good heaters.The Palomas have been excellent and durable,no complaints.

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730virgil

02-28-2008 13:59:45




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to in-too-deep, 02-28-2008 13:29:20  
call a good plumber or gas supplier they should be able to help you. i think new gas water heater would be good second choice. i don't remember details but did look into one of them. for the 3 of us it wouldn't have been practical because of first cost. in your case i would think would be a better move as you need to replace them anyhowand have lot more people using hot water.



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in-too-deep

02-28-2008 14:48:34




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 Re: Commercial Tankless Hot Water Heaters in reply to 730virgil, 02-28-2008 13:59:45  
Matter of fact my regular plumber is a dealer and installer for the brand I want, so that's good. They couldn't tell me much about them, other than they haven't had service calls on them.

You're right, it's a big chunk of change out front, probably $1,400 altogether, using my labor. On the other hand, it's 83% efficient, and says it'll save atleast 30% on gas bills. Folks also like to see us using energy efficient and "green" stuff.

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