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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear.

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caleb in pa

02-24-2008 16:22:19




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I am wondering if it is a good idea to weld the spider gears together to make a posi rear. It is in a 1971 nova which will house a 425 hp engine. The rear is a 10 bolt with a 3.08 ratio, i plan on changing the rear to a 3.73 ratio. Should i switch to a 12 bolt as i know if one of the axles snap on the 10 bolt the whell will fall off, they make c-clip eliminators for the 12 bolts. Has anyone welded spider gears together before and if so how did it work out? any oppinions or stories would be appreciated. thanks-Caleb

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Joe(TX)

02-25-2008 09:27:01




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Like some probably mentioned, It will not make it a posi by welding the spiders. It makes it a locked differential.
BYW, it did not work very well 40 years ago either. It usually results in a broken rear end.



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buickanddeere

02-25-2008 09:10:18




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
I was thinking that too..... ..... The lad should be putting this $$$ into an education or property instead.



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jose bagge

02-26-2008 16:13:04




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to buickanddeere, 02-25-2008 09:10:18  
Nothing wrong with putting a lil' dough into a nice ride....What did you drive in high school?
I had nice cars throughout- all bought or built by myself- everything from VW bugs to Firebird 400s to a crazy summer with a Lotus Europa. Still paid for college myself...and still bought a house 2 years out of college! Caleb: get it running and on the road- have fun with it- then build another and another!

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Bob Kerr

02-25-2008 08:00:01




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Have you heard the old saying, "you can"t polish a turd" well, welding spider gears is polishing a turd. It is a good way to see the car sit on a trailer on the way home, than collecting winnings. If drag racing get a spool, if street driving get a limited slip which isn"t as bad as it sounds. You need it to slip on turns, but they lock up under torque. If road racing stay with single track and get sticky tires. I will add, more cars have ended up in the junk yard wrecked because of posi rears and not knowing how to drive them through turns.Down shifting can even lock up a posi as quick as flooring it when cornering. Nascar uses "single track" rears. Limited slip would put those cars in the wall in the first lap.

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jose bagge

02-26-2008 16:04:49




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to Bob Kerr, 02-25-2008 08:00:01  
sorry, Bob- they are using lockers or limited slips. That's why "stagger" ( difference in tire circumfrence) is so important on those cars. I don't even think Speedway or Stock Car Products offers an "open" diff.



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jose bagge

02-25-2008 05:08:46




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
cALEB;
welding spiders is a common practice on "low buck" oval track cars- every Friday and Saturday night thousands of americans are turnin' and burnin' on welded spiders. It's basically the same as running a spool or mini-spool. If this car were 85% track or street racing (god forbid!), I'd do it- but man are locked rears tough to park and hard to push!
Forget the Dana- heck they're harder to find and more expensive than a 12 bolt- and go 9" ford. See my earlier post to ya- a narrowed 9" is not as hard or expensive to pull off as most think.

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Dave from MN

02-25-2008 03:54:24




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Spend the money and do it right the first time. Follow the advise here. Why build a motor like that, and stick it in to a go cart drive train. A 425 HP motor wont do you any good with out the proper drive line, you will just keep breaking things. BTDT



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Leland

02-24-2008 23:17:04




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
go to a junk yard and buy an old dana 60 and have it cut down this will handle the hp better than welding gears together .Only guys that do that run on a track where turning is not that important .



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dieselpaul

02-24-2008 20:53:26




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  

I'm kinda surprised to find that trick even mentioned--thought it died when the welded-up diff. lost it & ran off the cry-baby bridge----anybody remember the spider gears that you could buy that were ''square''??--paul



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Sean McDonnell

02-24-2008 20:47:33




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Aiend of mine used to weld the spiders in the rear of his track only car. Even at best he would only get a few races out of them befor the welds would crack. There is just too much stress if your not driving in a perfectly straight line. As for lockers or limited slip, if your going to drive the car on the street much I would shy away from the locker. I have a '79 ford pickup that I installed a detroit locker in for mostly use in the mud. I can tell you that the locked rear is a royal pain in the A** on the street. I'd go with a high quality limited slip unit myself. Just my 2cents

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Hal (WA)

02-24-2008 19:30:12




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Welding the spider gears would be a mistake. Something would break fairly soon, probably an axle. There is a very good reason that car manufacturers always feature some kind of a differential: if you plan on ever going around a corner, the inside wheel HAS TO either turn less than the outer wheel or else has to slip the tire some. Not so good on pavement. Hard on tires and if the tires bite well, very hard on the rearend components.

If you can get 12 bolt posi rearends that will bolt into your Nova for $300, buy all of them. I wouldn't be surprised if you could sell every one of them for at least $1000. They didn't make all that many 12 bolts for the smaller cars like Camaros or Novas. They were real, legitimate musclecar rearends and are hard to find.

But they did make lots of 10 bolt rearends. Some of them were tougher than others and have held up pretty well in lots of cars. The ones that are probably best have 8.5" ring gears, but most of them that I have looked into have the 8.2" gear. It is hard to say what your car has. You almost need to look inside to know for sure.

I think you might be able to find a good 10 bolt posi rearend in the $300 area, if you were lucky. Check those swap meets.

Another possible alternative would be a Ford 9". There are still a bunch of them out there that are about the same width as your stock rearend. The Chrysler 8.75" rearend is also pretty strong. But both use a different wheel bolt pattern than your Nova.

You might want to go back through the archives and re-read what people responded to your earlier questions. There was quite a bit of good advice there from guys that have been there and done that. You might be able to save a whole lot of money.

But again, I believe it would be a mistake to weld the spider gears in your stock rearend. At best, it would just ruin the rearend for driving the car. At worst, it might cause the car to become out of control sometime at speed which could kill you.

Good luck! And don't let your bench racing ideas ruin the usability of your first ride. HAL

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Walt Davies

02-24-2008 19:29:28




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Dumbest thing I have ever heard on any list for one thing you can't run a locked rearend on pavement it destroy itself in about 1 or 2 miles. Positraction is what you want not positive traction.
My Ford Ranger will lock up pretty good in 4 wheel drive an it sure squeals and hollers in a tight turn on hard surface. will let you right now to take it out of 4 wheel.
Walt



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Nolan

02-24-2008 18:21:25




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
I have not personally welded a rear. I have run solid rears. You turn by spinning the inside tire. So you've got to romp it, every time you turn.

If you're talking a track car, that's just fine. A solid rear works just fine. If you're talking a street car, it'll drive you nuts, and little johny-law will be following you around town writing you tickets at every turn.

Two alternatives to think about. Spools and lockers. Both are fairly cheap.

A spool is a locked rear. It works just like welding the rear, just no welding is involved. They also don't break, which welded rears are notorious for doing. They are cheap and pretty easy to install.

A locker, aka a lunchbox locker, is a drop in modification. They cost anywhere from $150-400 depending on new or used, and who's name you buy. I ran a lock-rite for some time. Others swear by ausy. Detroit is nifty but real expensive. They are quite streetable, though they definately have a personality. Turns are frequently noisy and lurchy, but much more doable than with a locked rear.

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old

02-24-2008 18:13:50




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Weld them up and kill your self or worse some one else. Reason I say this is because the car will not turn a corner well and that is just looking to get in a wreck. Do it right and buy a true pos. rear end or don't do it at all. Welding them is fine for a drag car but thats about it



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Novanut

02-24-2008 17:47:45




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Caleb, honestly I wouldn't do it. You'll hate it... very hard to make a turn... eats up tires and is very rough on the gears. I have had friends who have done it before, but I have'nt done it to any of my cars... because it's not safe and I'd rather keep my car driveable. If you must do something, look for a 9in rear from a 68-73 mustang...almost a direct bolt-in... and you can get almost any parts for it. BTW, they do make the c-clip eliminators for a 10 bolt... just gotta look harder for them.

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johndeereman

02-24-2008 17:18:43




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
we weld our gears in demolition derby cars ive played on the road with them you cant steer them at all at 40 m.p.h.+ i use a 110 mig heat is just right



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Dick L

02-24-2008 17:14:04




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
I welded them back in the early 60 on the stock cars I built for dirt track. Common practice back then for that type of use. They were welding them on cars for the drag strip as well. I sure wouldn't on a car used on the street. You will most likely snap an axle.



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ram ranch

02-24-2008 17:03:25




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
How can you afford a muscle car? But can't afford a $300-$500 posi unit? Let alone the gas if you’re getting that bad of mileage?



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Lanse

02-24-2008 17:30:26




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to ram ranch, 02-24-2008 17:03:25  
Thats crossed my mind too. I currentally have $530.10 in my B by my calculations, and id much rather have her then a part for a car. I have most everything that was missing or damaged on the engine, and with dick L's head offer it should run once it unsticks, although a ring job is probabally in order. But 2 new rims are gonna hurt. Owwwww. But it isnt that bad, ive gotten alot from the people on this site and finally set up a paypal account

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caleb in pa

02-24-2008 17:42:56




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to Lanse, 02-24-2008 17:30:26  
you'll undertand when you get old enouph to drive. It wont be that expensive- $1500 in the engine, 150 for trans and shift kit, maybe if i can get a 12 bolt posi for $300. and a couple hundred for paint, or maybe ill just put her in primer for now to save money. and i forgot to mention $40 for the bucket seats. And by the way lanse, what year is your B, I own a 1939 john deere B, you know, the hand start kind, Its a pain when its hot outside, sure shell fire right up when shes cold. Yes its opposite of what you would think.

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jose bagge

02-26-2008 16:18:20




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 17:42:56  
Caleb, have your fun. Want to know what driving with a welded rear is like? Weld up the 10 bolt- you're gonna scrap it anyway! Experiment! Adventure is the spice of life!
Contrary to many opinions here- you probably won't have the traction to bust it, and it's not gonna steer you into the fence.



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Lanse

02-24-2008 17:50:03




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 17:42:56  
Hey, youre a year older then me :-) Well, you are lucky if you could pull that off!! This may need $1500 for the engine, but i spent $25 for paint :-)
Good luck, caleb!!



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ILikeCase

02-24-2008 16:52:45




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Caleb
I really DO NOT advocate a welded (or spooled) rear end in a vehicle to see ANY street use. But if you must try it-I was young once:)- the gears need to be cooled as slow as possible after the welding. I found that floor dry works very good for this insulation. If packed in floor dry immediately after the welding they will hold there heat to a point that you won't be able to touch them for a couple of hours.

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Ben Rauls

02-24-2008 16:51:28




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
You will hate that welded rear end, I had a spool in my mud truck worst money i ever spent, keep it open till you have the money for a posi



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Lumpy

02-24-2008 16:36:41




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Welding the gears is not a good idea because they are made of a tough, durable steel that generally gets harder when heated up. Thus making it brittle or easier to break. Before I would spend the money and buy a 12-bolt... You would be money ahead buy putting a Ford 9" under it. The 9" is alot stronger with 31 spline axels. I know a guy who is putting over 700 hp to the ground with a blown BB using a 9". I'm willing to bet that if you start searching bone yards you will find all kinds of 9" rear ends in pick-ups with locking 3:50 gears. Just my .02

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buickanddeere

02-24-2008 16:30:57




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
It's called a spool. Your experiences with the Nova will be brief running a spool on the street. Either being bu$ted for squealing tires every time you turn a corner. Or having wrecks when the rear end slides sideways without warning on a wet curve. How are you going to obtain 425 gross HP, let alone 425 net flywheel HP or 425 rear wheel HP? What are you beefing up the transmission, driveshaft, rear end and suspension with? Are you using a driveshaft loop? How deep are your pockets?

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caleb in pa

02-24-2008 16:36:50




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to buickanddeere, 02-24-2008 16:30:57  
its going to have a 400chevy engine which i hope to get 375-400 hp, i have a 350turbo tranny here rebuilt 40,000 ago and its probably gonna get a 3000 stall converter. Its the stock drive shaft. i should probably put a 12 bolt in, hopefully one that already has a posi unit in. Multi leaf rear springs, ill probably have stabilizing bars.



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JT

02-24-2008 16:59:51




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:36:50  
Caleb,
You need to slow his train down or you are going to have a massive trainreck with disasterous results.
If you are going to try to put 400 + or - hp through a stock tranny with a stock drive shaft,with a stock rear end, in a stock bodied 1971 Nova, you looking for major problems. A stock TH350 will come apart about the first time you put your foot n it. The valve body and clutches just do not hold up. If you do get lucky and the tranny don't come apart, you are gonna twist the drive shaft or yokes out of the drive shaft. If you get lucky and these hold up, you put 425 to the ground, you will twist the body, a Nova is a uni-body car and needs to be frame tied. Then with a 10-12 bolt GM rear ends do not have heavy enough bearings to take the hp you are wanting, you will twist it apart. Sounds like you have a lot of ambition, and you have asked a lot of questions, and questions are good, but Caleb, you need to heed their advice, or you or your car are going to get hurt, possibly BAD!You could have a nice ride you are wanting to build, but don't build it if you cannot afford to do it safely. Jim

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Gene Dotson

02-24-2008 16:28:40




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
Welding the spiders was a common practice for drag racing in the late fifties and early sixties. It was for dragstrip use only. A solid rear axle is very dangerous for highway driving. Better put in a positraction in it while you have it apart and have best of both... Gene



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caleb in pa

02-24-2008 16:32:54




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to Gene Dotson, 02-24-2008 16:28:40  
this car would only be used for short trips seeing as it is going to be a musclecar and is only gonna see 5 or so miles to the gallon. Only on weekends and for trips no longer than 10 or 20 miles and most of the roads here are straight except for a couple turns and intersections.



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JT

02-24-2008 17:07:08




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:32:54  
Caleb,
The last "race car engine" I had got about 1-2 mpg, Holly 750 DFDP on a 390 Ford with just a cam and headers. You will also be needing 100-105 octane fuel if you are gonna build this to 400hp at 5.00-6.00 a gallon.
Jim



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JT

02-24-2008 17:06:31




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:32:54  
Caleb,
The last "race car engine" I had got about 1-2 mpg, Holly 750 DFDP on a 390 Ford with just a cam and headers. You will also be needing 100-105 octane fuel if you are gonna build this to 400hp.
Jim



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caleb in pa

02-24-2008 16:25:03




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:22:19  
by the way the only reason i am going to do this is because i dont have a dime to spend on the rear, posi kits are running about $300-500 right now, so this is sort of a quick-fix thing. again thanks, caleb



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davpal

02-24-2008 21:07:05




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:25:03  
You could possibly get by with a mini spool. They are available from Jegs or Summit for about $50 dollars. I have a 1969 Mach 1 that I have drag raced for over 20 years and I finally put a mini spool in the 9 inch rear. Works great. I had trouble with a couple of traction locks breaking and I went to the simple fix. My car uses 9.00x 28 x15 Mickey Thompson slicks and runs 11.65 quarters with about a 1.60 sixty foot times. I was stubborn and totally against using the spool until a friend of mine put one in his 11 second 5.0 and swore to me it handled ok. My car goes straight as an arrow and turns fine all around the pits and the end of the track and around the farm here. Even with the slicks on the back. Maybe because the Mustang is fairly light in the back so it turns without too much drama back there. The nova should be fairly light in the rear too so it may be ok. C- clip eliminators are kind of a project to put in. I would consider the junkyard 9 inch from a ford car or truck. Gears are very cheap for them and again you could use the mini spool and have a very durable cheap set up. A really good option would be a 9 inch housing from one of the old small ford bronco's. They use anywhere from a 3.50 -4.56 gear and usually have a traction lock from the factory. They also have leaf spring perches that are easy to cut off and relocate.

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jose bagge

02-26-2008 16:24:40




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to davpal, 02-24-2008 21:07:05  
Absolutely right! mini spool in a 9" ford- except you'll never find that old bronco rear. Get one out of an old F-150, probably already have a decent ration, use a 4" tubing cutter to narrow the axle tube and get Greg Moser to shorten/ respline the axles. It will be bullet proof in that Nova



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Bendee

02-24-2008 18:26:12




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 Re: welding spider gears to make a positve traction rear. in reply to caleb in pa, 02-24-2008 16:25:03  
Quick fix things tend to become more expensive in the long run.
I expect it would be illegal on the road??



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