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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Questions on diesel emissions

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Don Wadge

12-19-2007 19:52:58




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For instance the Volkswagen TDI gets 55MPG, some say as much as 60MPG per Canadian gallon. That should be 44 to 48 per US gallon. Now I understand that Volkswagen can't meet the emissions restrictions this year so you can't get a 2007 Volkwagen TDI right now. And yet a Ford Excursion or Lincoln Navigator, Cadillac Escalade etc. is OK but only gets maybe 16 - 20MPG. Question is do they set emission controls on "emissions emitted per gallon" or on the miles travelled? Because if it's based on gallons or running time the TDI would blow it away per 100 miles lets say. It would seem to me that the gas guzzlers would use 5 or six gallons in 100 miles but the TDI might have used only 2 gallons for the same distance. We've got a TDI and an F150. I like the F150 but with the TDI the fuel is hardly a consideration.

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jdemaris

12-20-2007 08:43:56




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
What you are referring to is more of a "world view" or "long range" view and it seems very little is done that way.

If "dirtier" Volkswagens were allowed, and fullsize diesel SUVs not - the total emissions would certainly be less.

If the true concern was total emissions - we'd be putting limits on frivolous air travel. And one of the worst polluters into the upper atmosphere is the space program. Also, going back to depending more on rail shipping instead of road tractor-trailers would cut down a huge amount of emissions.

By the way - we've got two 91 Volkswagen Jetta diesels. No turbos, mechanical injection, etc. Both consistently get 45 MPG (U.S. gallons) and have gotten up to 51 MPG on rare occasions. Both also get a consistent 38 MPG "around town and up the mountain."

Also have two 1981 Chevy Chevettes with 2.2 Isuzu diesels that do almost as well.

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jdemaris

12-20-2007 05:50:58




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
The problem with new diesels cars in the US is California. Recently, Mercedes was the only company that was able to sell a diesel-car compliant to California regs. It does so via an aux chemical tank.

Volkswagen diesel was only 48 state compliant and pulled out of the diesel market in the U.S.

Heavier diesel vehicles had more relaxed regs.



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Bob M

12-20-2007 07:56:15




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to jdemaris, 12-20-2007 05:50:58  
It's not just California!

Currently New York currently will not register any new diesel-powered passenger car on account of emissions. So except for an occasional ancient Benz there are virtually NO diesel cars running around here right now.

In addition the CHEAPEST diesel fuel in upstate NY is currently $3.65 - almost half a buck more than than regular gas. So diesel car mileage would have to be dramatically better than an equivalent gasser in order to make a diesel option attractive right now. It's crasy....

(Incidentally at $3.65/gal I'm driving my F250 diesel as little as possible these days!)

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jdemaris

12-20-2007 08:32:39




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 Not quite true in reply to Bob M, 12-20-2007 07:56:15  
Yes they will allow them to be registered - but the new car has to be purchased in another state. The "temporary" New York ban only applies to the sale of new diesels inside the state - not the use of them. And, before August of 2007, they were also legal for sale in New York.

For early 2008 the Mercedes diesel is also not allowed in California and Pennsylvania, Connecticut and Rhode Island -and maybe Maine, Massachusetts, and Vermont - but it's confusing.

Mercedes states that by mid-2008, their diesel will be 50 state compliant. Same with Honda and Volkswagen.

In regard to diesel fuel prices - yeah - I wonder why diesel is so much higher than reg. gas now - since it used to require less refining, not more. I wonder how much expense has been added with the ultra-low sufur treatment.

My neighbor, who has agricutural plates on his truck - is driving everywhere on dyed farm-fuel.
He claims that as a farmer he's allowed. I believe he's in error. Kind of funny though - he has two diesel trucks. A 93 Dodge-Cummins and a 2006 Duramax. The Duramax won't run on the farm -fuel, only the Dodge will. Seems the Duramax has pump-drivers that force the system into "limp mode" when it senses farm-fuel or heating oil.

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Jerry Cent Mi.

12-20-2007 05:38:50




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
My son in law works in the emission lab at GM. Our standards are more stringent than the rest of the world. Diesals are being held up by the puff of black smoke they issue when they start. Its giving GM fits trying to get rid of it.



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Bob M

12-20-2007 05:33:07




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
Don - Exhaust emissions limits are stated in grams per mile travelled, not per gallon of fuel burned. So whether vehicles get 12 or 55 mpg is inconsequential - ALL must conform to the same "grams per mile" emissions criteria.

The Ford Excursion - essentially an oversized SUV assembled on the F250 frame - got around passengler vehicle emissions limits on account of it's weight. It's max GVW was something like 8,500 lb GVW if I recall. This classified it as a light truck, thus subject to less stringent emissions requirements.

Incidentally Ford ended production of the Excursion in 2005. AFAIK there is no factory diesel-powered Navigator or Escalade.

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dej(jed)

12-20-2007 05:12:15




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
Bob is exactly on the money. It is PPM (Parts Per Million) of pollutants in the exhaust gases.
I run a fuels and lubes lab and we test emmisisons on a regular basis. There is a heck of a diesel additive about to hit the market called (Freedom MG20D). This stuff reduces NOX, CO, CO2 & SO2 emmissions and it increases miles per gallon by an avg. of 25%. I have seena nd tested a lot of tehm , but this one really does the job.

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TWJanak

12-20-2007 05:08:13




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Dan-IA, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  

John M said: (quoted from post at 04:03:02 12/20/07) I was unaware the Navigator or Escalade were available with diesels. Im sure VW will get it fiqured out before too long, but your comapring apples to oranges.


They are not and 20 mpg out of one is really pushing it, especially the Navigator.

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John M

12-20-2007 03:03:02




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
I was unaware the Navigator or Escalade were available with diesels. Im sure VW will get it fiqured out before too long, but your comapring apples to oranges.



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Robert Huntress

12-19-2007 20:43:46




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
Don, don't you just love the way that works? Automakers weld extra weight to the frame of one ton trucks for the purpose of exempting them from performance and emisson reporting requirements. By ensuring the vehicle weighs over 6,000lbs., which they are close to anyway, the truck isn't measured against the lighter trucks. If you follow most of the enviormental policies, you will find that they are not driven by an great desire to save the earth. In almost every case, They are intended to give a company, or industry an advantage over others. Consider that Kyoto would place a higher burden on America than on Asian nations like China. This is an attempt to increase the cost of American production, and give other nations an economic, not enviormental, advantage. When enviormental spin becomes obviously flawed, there is always safty. It can then be argued that, "It's for the children". How many families drive their children around in minivans? Are you aware that small private schools are not allowed to drive the same children across town to a field trip in one ton vans?

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Bob

12-19-2007 20:00:23




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 Re: Questions on diesel emissions in reply to Don Wadge, 12-19-2007 19:52:58  
Perhaps "parts per million" of selected pollutants in the exhaust???



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