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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin......

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glennster

12-10-2007 10:10:20




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this idea kinda got formulated on another board, dunno if it will work, here goes. how about running a dual fuel like a farmall m on 100% ethanol. use the small tank for gasoline to start and warm the motor. as ethanol likes compression to make power, i got a paxton style supercharger off an old kaiser fraiser car in the barn. run maybe 20% overdrive and open the main jet up to put fuel to her. i dont think there should be any problems with the fuel system, its pretty much all steel, maybe change the needle and seat. whaddya think???

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hd6gtom

12-11-2007 07:27:03




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
When we introduced ethanol to Iowa over thirty years ago we were buying alchol and gas, mixing it ourselves at the bulk plant. We had several farmers purchase alchol and convert Chevy pickups to run on it. They had to rejet the carbs and readjust the timing. Some of the guys had the heads plained to up the compresion. It worked well, better when they raised the compression to take advantage of the alchol fuel. They had no problems with gaskets or hoses that I can remember. It seemed to be something that was going to take off, but the price of alchol took a big increase and killed the projects. These chevy pickups had the hardened valves in the heads. I dont think most old tractors have them, might want to check.

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MSD

12-10-2007 20:49:32




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
I have run E85 in my Bo Lindeman without any issues. The carb didn't get eaten off the manifold and the engine is still in one piece. it did do a good job of taking the varnish off the inside of the tank though. There was an article in the paper about ethanol efficiency. Quite interesting. I will post it tomorrorw when I find the article back.



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36 coupe

12-11-2007 03:17:16




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to MSD, 12-10-2007 20:49:32  
Left some drygas in a chain saw by mistake years ago.It attacked the inside of the tank, looking like it was full of giant warts.The coating in side the tank that had survived years of gas and oil mix was dissolved.Zinc based carberator castings will be destroyed.Cars that use ethanol must be designed for it.Galvanized coatings will be destroyed.Ethanol demand has dropped about 30%.Some plants are idle because the price they can get for it is lower than production costs.I notice food prices have increased about 20% since corn has been used to make ethanol.I put down 7.50 for a bag of layer feed.The clerk said its 9.35 now.The cost of feed used to grow chickens has increased 40%.

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MSD

12-10-2007 21:07:19




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to MSD, 12-10-2007 20:49:32  
Forgot to mention, Green Magazine did an article on running E85 in older tractors also in there last issue.



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RobMD

12-10-2007 16:34:57




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
people must be bored nowadays to do sumthin' like that. ;)



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glennster

12-10-2007 12:26:56




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
one of the guys here at the shop has a blown alcohol dragster. he runs methanol. to start the car he primes it with gasoline to get it to start, the the injectors take over for the methanol. starts easy on gas. that why i was thinking the dual fuel. also i have a 42 m that was a distillate, but has a gas head. it has been rebuilt 2 years ago, new sleeves, pistons ect. its not going to be a puller. i was thinking on the blower to get the compression up without going with big pistons, trick heads ect. the paxton blower i have is belt driven from the crankshaft, so it would be pretty easy to adapt some brackets to mount it, put the carb ahead of the blower and pipe it to the intake. the carb on the m is the distillate, so its got a bigger main jet. then i can have georgeky fire up the still for some good corn squeezins, and do some bush hogging!!

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RustyFarmall

12-10-2007 13:40:18




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 12:26:56  
Go for it. I think it can be done. Just gonna take a little head scratchin' and some trial and error stuff.



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onefarmer ISP Tech

12-10-2007 12:16:04




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
I ran my Farmall M on e85 last summer to see how it worked.. I stated with a tank of 50/50 blend of gas/e85 and after opening the main jet some it worked great. Next tank I used 100% e85. I found I would have to rework the carb to flow enough. Ran ok under light load but when the gov would kick in, it fell on it's face. I never had any issue with starting on e85, But haven't tried it in the winter yet, it was 70-80* at the time. Found the carb and lower intake would frost up easier. I do wonder if I had a distilate carb if it would flow better. I don't know the differances in one.

A blower would not make better use of e85 or 100%alcohol unless you was using full power all the time. A blower would increase cylinder pressure yes, but only under full power, wide open throttle conditions. Are you tractor pulling?

A better setup would be to use a lp head and/or dome pistons to increase the compression ratio. Get a better squeeze on it every time

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RustyFarmall

12-10-2007 12:31:47




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to onefarmer ISP Tech, 12-10-2007 12:16:04  
The distillate carb is really no different inside. What you need to do is take the carb apart, remove the main metering stem, and drill the bottom holes in the stem to the next larger drill size and then run the tractor again. If it still stumbles, repeat the process, but this time ignore the bottom holes, and move up to the next set of holes. You can also drill out the main jet that the adjusting needle seats into, but be cautious about doing that because it is pretty much non reversible. If you go too far on the main metering stem, it can be easily replaced.

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georgeky

12-10-2007 11:51:52




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
Glenn, my momma always says anything will work if it is hooked up right. As for those rubber fuel lines mentoined, all my old Farmalls have copper or steel gas lines on them, so that shouldn't be an issue at all. Seals,O-rings, gaskets and the like can be had that will stand up to it. I have been considering this myself, as I can grow corn, and have a Jim Dandy sour mash recipe. Have heard of several moonshiners in these parts running cars on it years ago.

Rich, why would it need lubricant? Gas as best as I can tell has very little if any in it. That is why 2 cycle engines must have oil added to gas, but 4 cycle engines are lubed from the oil pump. I am not arguing, just curious like Glenn.

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davediehl@hotmail.com

12-10-2007 11:28:17




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
Its not an issue if it will ruin the engine. Ethanol will not harm the steel internal working of an engine, but it WILL eat cork gaskets and more specifically, it will eat rubber fuel lines. Alcohol is not friendly of carbs at all. The inside of your fuel line will look like it was scoured with a wire brush. All of the little particles that are broken loose will plug holes and literally eat anything that is not metal.

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old

12-10-2007 10:37:17




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
100% would probably burn the engine up. One of the problems with that stuff it the fact it has no lube where as gas does so a little bit. Thats why they don't sell it 100% but only 85% and they add oil or something to help lube the upper part of the engine. I know some of the racer that use the 100% stuff have oil injectors so as to keep the upper part of the engine lubes so they don't burn them up

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Leroy

12-10-2007 15:54:48




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to old, 12-10-2007 10:37:17  
The reason for the 15% gasoline is to keep some stupid drunk from trying to dring the ethanol



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Mark-Mi

12-10-2007 17:31:01




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to Leroy, 12-10-2007 15:54:48  
There is a small amount of gasoline added at the ethanol plant so it can't be used for human consumption.Mark



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Mark-Mi

12-10-2007 17:30:46




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to Leroy, 12-10-2007 15:54:48  
There is a small amount of gasoline added at the ethanol plant so it can't be used for human consumption.Mark



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Gerald J.

12-10-2007 13:46:53




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to old, 12-10-2007 10:37:17  
They sell E-85 with 15% gasoline for winter starting.

Gerald J.



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old

12-10-2007 15:16:50




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to Gerald J., 12-10-2007 13:46:53  
Thats only part of why. Ethanol is abrasive is not mixed with gas and or some other additive



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RustyFarmall

12-10-2007 10:25:49




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
A dual fuel engine probably will not work because of the inheritant low compression of those engines. You need to start with a high compression gasoline engine, and then increase the compression even more. I imagine you also want to modify the fuel metering system inside of the carb to allow for a much increased fuel flow, but not impossible to do. The original needle and seat should be just fine. Also, I don't see any need for the small gasoline starting tank. The engine should start just fine on straight ethanol. The addition of that super charger or a turbo charger would really wake it up.

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buickanddeere

12-10-2007 10:18:25




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 Re: ethanol and a dual fuel tractor, just thinkin...... in reply to glennster, 12-10-2007 10:10:20  
How about restoring the car with the factory Paxton blower? It would be a shame to waste such a rarity. You will be happier running high compression pistons rather than forced induction. I don't know where 100% ethanol would be coming from but E-85 can be found. The tractor should start well enough without a 2nd tank. A wide plug gap and high output multiple spark ignition system would be a benefit. Fuel flow will have to be roughly doubled. The factory carb float valve may not flow enough at full power.

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