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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Streight pipes on WORK tractors

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Dairy farmer in

07-29-2007 19:25:46




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now i think someone is trying to fill me full of B.S. but i was talking to my neighbor about putting a pipe on my 970 for chopping and the occasional pull. he says not to because it will hurt the valves. not trying to start anything here but is this true? i would think it would HELP the valves if anything. just trying to set things straight. thanks for help
DF in WI




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Dick L

07-30-2007 11:05:48




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 Re: Straight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
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The reason I put a tall straight pipe on my Allis C engine was to solve the air being drawn back down in the engine problem. Ya see the bottom of the pipe gets red hot and the top is cooler. Therefore it creates a draft as the hot exhaust moves to the cooler top. This draws more fuel thru the carburetor and boosts the horse power. Also solves the problem of the air that is being drawn down into the engine from blowing back thru the carburetor.

TUNG IN CHEEK

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Tom43

07-30-2007 08:18:16




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
Why would anyone want a straight pipe? I hate the sound of an unmuffled engine compared to the mellow sounds of a good muffler.



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S Himrod

07-30-2007 07:00:04




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
I grew up on a farm in Iowa. I remember when dad bought his new case 970-off came the stock exhuast and on went a straight pipe-with rain cap. Boy could she pull. Dad just retired a couple of years ago, sad to see that day it was. Anyway my point- 30 years and no valve problems! "YES" it was a little on the loud side but it is a sound that I will NEVER forget!!!



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msb

07-30-2007 06:33:37




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 Re: Straight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
More valves are warped from shutting off an engine that is not allowed to cool down than from straight pipes. however the potential damage to your ears are simply NOT worth the risk.



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Hobo,NC

07-30-2007 04:51:48




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
Oh boy all this talk about air B-n pulled back in, I best go add a filter to my straight pipe.
I wonder what all that dirty air has not worn the cylinders slap out. You recon the heat sterilizes the air, do you spec a muffler has a built in filter. wonder why I have never seen rust from a up right muffler in a cylinder.

Warped valve go right along with a engine that is runing to hot, has run hot, or has had the snot run out of it. I spec if thought the straight pipe would affect it I would let it idle a min. or so B-4 I shut it down to allow the cylinders to bring the temp down to a acceptable temp. It is a interesting site to run a engine with out a manifold and look into the exhaust port and see fire in the hole when the exh. valve opens.

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Huh ? can't hear ya !

07-30-2007 04:39:37




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
What did you say ? Why do my ears ring all the time ?



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Walt Davies

07-29-2007 23:37:05




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
Well you got a lot of stuff to sort out here, pipe to short pipe to long to much back pressure , to little back pressure. Wonder you don't just throw up your hands and quit HUH!!.

Actually the exhaust valve closes before the piston starts back down so it can't pull cold air in.

Back pressure is your worst enemy as it keeps the cylinder from clearing all the spent gas.

Shorter pipes will cause the valves to run a little hotter and the noise surely will hurt the ears.

I like to have one that is about 3 ft. in length for better running and sound. Put a curve on the end and turn it away from you.

Don't hurt to have a good flow though muffler though.
Walt

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Don-Wi

07-29-2007 21:58:09




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
If Iever had to replace the muffler for our Oliver 1855, I might think about it only because the muffler is kinda pricey. ON the other hand we've got a neighbor who put a straight pipe on they're 2-135 and we can here that thing working from over a mile away.

We had a tempoaray straight pipe on our 1855 but I didn't notice a whole lot more noise, just a little more bark when working it. Not a whole lot though. The turbo alreay took care of a good portion of the noise. I always wear earplugs when on any of our tractors, but especially on the 18.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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Ultradog MN

07-29-2007 21:41:46




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
There was a Dutch philosopher named Spinoza who once wrote:
"A man's intelligence is inversely proportional to his tolerance to noise".
Only you can decide if the extra HP is worth it.



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mjbrown

07-30-2007 03:50:57




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Ultradog MN, 07-29-2007 21:41:46  
If that's true I've got some idiots for neighbors. They are loud and they live a half mile away.



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buickanddeere

07-29-2007 21:40:46




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
Listen to Bob. Cold atmospheric air at 14.7psi falling down or being drawn into the pipe, manifold, exhaust port then past the exhaust valve? As the residual combustion chamber pressure of 100-300psi is pushing exhaust out ahead of the rising piston? Ummmmm m no. Engine requiring exhaust back pressure to operate..... ..... ..no. A carburetor is calibrated for the proper air/fuel mixture with the factory aircleaner & exhaust system. The carb sometimes will not meter enough extra fuel to compensate for the extra airflow unless jetted richer. That is where the leaner/hotter mixture and exhaust overheats valves and warps/burns them. If worried about thermal shock to combustion chamber components such as intake/exhaust valves, spark plugs, injectors, piston tops, rings, head gaskets, cylinder walls and cylinder head? Then you should be worried about your engine in the winter drawing 0F to -40F air through the intake system into the combustion chamber. Old wives tales here again. And yes you will be saying huh, what, pardon and speak up more in the future. The HP gains will be minimal and everybody around will be thinking. Who is the *sshole wantabe racer/puller with the yappy straight pipe? Oh, straight is spelled as "straight".

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Chris in MD

07-29-2007 21:14:20




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
The ONLY thing you need to worry about is whether or not the ridiculous extra one-tenth of horsepower attained by a straight pipe is worth sacrificing your hearing.



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old

07-29-2007 20:43:27




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
Only way it can ever hurt the valves is if the pipe is to short and it lets cool air back into the valves. Now just an open manifold will hurt the valves but thats because it lets cool air in and causes them to warp and that is what causes them to burn. Now as far as haveing more power nope yet it helps a little but not enough to notice or make you pull better. Plus if you look at most tractor mufflers you can look stirhgt through them any how so if you think about it how can one hurt and the other not when both are open just one is wrapped and the other one isn't

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Farmall MD

07-30-2007 01:26:16




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to old, 07-29-2007 20:43:27  
Old, I must say I always respect your opinion, but not this one.

How can air be drawn back in? You have a piston coming up at full stroke with the valve open during this entire stroke at 2000 rpm. That is alot of pressure. The exhaust valve does not stay open past top dead center. So how can air be drawn back in?

Even if it did stay open a little past top dead, cold air still could not be drawn in. A full stroke with valve open versus, say, 1/12th stroke with valve partly open(it's on it's way to being closed). Not hardly. Plus even if it did have a backdraft for just a slight time, the exhaust gasses would heat up the incoming anyway. There is no possible way for cold air to be drawn in the exhaust ports while engine is running, it is impossible. Doug N

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old

07-30-2007 08:35:59




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Farmall MD, 07-30-2007 01:26:16  
If you ever watch a pipe that has the flip cap on it you will see its going up and down all the time. And engine cycles and that cycle pushes and pulls air all at the same time. I know it sound funny but its fact. Just like back in the 60s on some of the 6 cyclinder engines they found haveing an intake manifold that was about 18-24 inches increased HP by 10-25% again because of how an engine cycle and pushes and pulls on both exhaust and intake. If you look in the right books this is explained real well but you have to look in the right books to find it

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georgeky

07-29-2007 20:55:56




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to old, 07-29-2007 20:43:27  
Old, I bet that short pipe was my problem. When I bought that old tractor in 1975 it had a straight pipe about a foot tall on it. I ran it for two days plowing corn ground with the 2X12 plow. On the third day it started running and sounding funny. It also kept fumes in my face both days. Since then it has had a muffler on it, and never another burned valve.



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old

07-29-2007 21:34:52




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to georgeky, 07-29-2007 20:55:56  
Yep they have to be as long or longer then a muffler or yep they can and will cause a valve to burn. The way I understand thing is the way the exhaust cycles it pushes and pull air in and out all the time and if to short on either a muffler or a straight pipe it pulls the cool air in and then it hits the very hot valve and warps it and that is what makes it burn

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georgeky

07-29-2007 20:20:44




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
I don't know about on every engine, but on some of old gas engines it will burn the valves as there is not enough back pressure on them. I think a weighted rain cap will help that some. I burned two valves in a Farmall C while running a straight pipe on it, and was told by my machine shop guy that the straight pipe caused it. I have seen lots of them with straight pipes though.



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Bob

07-29-2007 20:39:17




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to georgeky, 07-29-2007 20:20:44  
There's a theory that says HOT valves will sometimes cool very rapidly upon shutdown, with a straight pipe, and then burn next time the machine is "worked", because they are warped and not sealing properly.

Another possible reason is that the engine is "breathing better" with the straight pipe, and running leaner, and a LEAN mixture can burn hotter, and burn valves.

However, in my experience, the "straight pipes burn valves story" is more of an old mechanics' wive's tale than anything else.

Sure isn't good for the ears, though!

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caterpillar guy

07-29-2007 19:40:58




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
It's BS on a turboed diesel as the turbo is operated by the pressure on the turbine fins on the exhaust to turn the intake side. If a gasser which I doubt at this day and age it might be true I've heard that on them.



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RodInNS

07-29-2007 19:30:36




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 Re: Streight pipes on WORK tractors in reply to Dairy farmer in WI, 07-29-2007 19:25:46  
I've noticed that EGT's are slightly lower with a pipe, and they don't build as quick. I'd think that would help the valves....
The only thing the pipe will hurt is your ears if you don't use protection or have a very good cab.

Rod



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