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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Which has more power, Diesel or gas

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Tractor Novice

07-10-2007 02:02:04




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Something that I have wondered about. If you have a 30 HP gas tractor and a 30 HP diesel tractor what is the differance (which has more power). All the new tractors of today are diesel and all the old tractors, at least most of them are gas.




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Paul Simmer

07-10-2007 20:27:51




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Not sure how it all works. Many years ago, took my 1950 Case DC to the local fair to pull. Was in the 6000 lb class with tons of other tractors. Didn't do all that well but had fun. Did put it on the dyno while I was there. In that class, were lots of M's, including two MD's. I watch both MD's dyno, and their hp was in the 40's. At the end of the pull, there was a 9000 lb powder puff. I convinved my sister to pull the DC, as there were only a handful of tractors. She was concerned with lifting the front end. We added all the weight we had along that night, and weighted in at 7850 lbs. Both MD's were in the class, and didn't add any weight at all. I told my sister to just engage the clutch, and run it until it stalled. The DC actually outulled/outlugged both of the MD's. I figured they would spin out long before the DC, but they both ran out of power before the old Case.

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Andy Motteberg

07-10-2007 17:36:38




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Not sure, but I'd rather have a gas tractor than a diesel.



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rpg52

07-10-2007 16:39:13




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
One thing to consider are maintenance costs. A tractor used infrequently is cheaper in gas because all the maintenance costs are less. If you put a lot of hours on them though, even though the maintenance costs of a diesel are higher, you save in fuel costs and the costs per hour of use.
Someone (some ag extension??) estimated if you use a tractor less than ~100 hours/year, gas is cheaper. Mine is gas and I wish I had the torque of a diesel, but i don't use it enough to justify the upfront costs.

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Oldmax

07-10-2007 14:18:50




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Just think about the compresion ratio on a diesel verses a gas, I think a gas is around 9 to 1 where a diesel is much higher some even 25 to 1 also they have massive flywheels . & in most of the newer tractors the transmisions have more gears & about 1/2 the top speed of the older ones
I have a 1715 NH is a 27 HP about the same as a 8-n it has a 9 speed trans where a 8-n has a 4 speed my tractor will do 12 MPH in 9 gear 8-n will do about 23 MPH in 4 gear . HP isnt everthing if you don't have the right gearing for job .

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Tim B from MA

07-10-2007 14:11:08




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
HP = RPM X Torque. Different engines will build their max HP at different RPMs. Diesels are made to give more power at lower RPMs so they are better for lugging heavy loads. Gasoline engines give more power at higher RPMs.

Two examples:

Overall I have more HP than a 10 year old (I hope I still do anyhow:). Give me a 6-in long wratchet wrench (gasoneline engine) and give him an 18-inch wratchet wrench (deisel engine). If I can get a nut turning, I am probably going to beat him by a long shot, in terms of how long it takes to get the nut off. For that job, I have more HP of a kind that can do the job and I win. BUT ... If I can't build enough power with my short wrench to get the nut started turning off, all that "potential" HP isn't doing me any good. But for this job, the 10-year old with the long wrench can build enough power (in the form of torque) to get the nut turning. For that job, he wins.

Another example. My bosses BMW Z has more HP than my 7.3L Powerstroke, but I doubt he could pull my 5th wheel trailer with it. He'd probably be OK with it at 80 mph, but getting from 0 to 60 mph may be a problem for him; not to mention what happens when going up hills. For towing a heavy load, a diesel is generally better.

One other thing to consider. There is a lot of engineering between the engine and the wheels that contributes to the work that a machine can do. Main considerations are gearing and the weight of the machine. I have a Ford 841 - only about 45 HP, but in low gear I'd be hard pressed to put enough weight on the machine to gain enough traction to keep the wheels from turning. They just keep turning until they've buried themselves in the dirt.

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Jerry/MT

07-10-2007 12:47:33




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Horspepower is horsepower. The rpm where the peak horsepower is reached is usually much lower for a diesel than a gas engine and the max rpm of a diesel is also lower due to the heavier weight of the diesel components.

A diesel runs with an unthrottled intake and is controlled by varying the fuel to air ratio whereas a gas engine is controlled by throttling the intake and varying the air flow at almost constant fuel-air ratio. The specific fuel consumption is lower on a diesel of the same horsepower versus a spark ignition engine.

But a horsepower is 550 ft-lb/sec and how ever you make it it's the same ammount of power.

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Joe(TX)

07-10-2007 09:48:35




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
buickanddeere said it correctly. hp is hp. The differances are where the peak torque is and the torque rise as stated. The other differance is efficiancy and engine life.



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Kajun

07-10-2007 09:24:08




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Now buickanddeere's answer is one I can endorse. Sounds like he knows what he is talking about. But what in the world is an electric shunt engine etc etc.



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buickanddeere

07-10-2007 08:13:21




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
30HP is 30HP no matter if it's two or four stroke gasoline, two or four stroke diesel, steam turbine, steam piston, gas turbine, hydraulic motor, DC electric shunt, series or compound or electric induction or synchronous. If you are asking about torque rise if rpms are reduced due to overload? Then the piston steam, electric series, electric compound, electric shunt, electric induction, four stroke diesel then four stroke gasser would be the order of torque rise. However the old two cylinder Deere gassers have a higher torque rise than some modern diesels. HP, torque and, torque rise often get tossed together and used interchangeably even though they are all very different.

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georgeky

07-10-2007 08:09:19




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
I am not so sure. My old Ford truck with a 7.5 liter(460CI) will run off and leave my 7.3 liter diesel truck empty or loaded, and any other diesel pickup I have driven. The Farmall 400 and several others tested at higher HP for the gas version then did the diesel version with identical displacement in Nebraska tractor tests. Diesel is cheaper to buy and engines last longer is the biggest reason everyone prefers them. I don't know, this is just what I have noticed. I would also think that if diesel would produce more power that the race cars would be running them.

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Lou

07-10-2007 07:35:08




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
You sure dont see many gas tractors on working farms or doing construction work. That fact should lead the novice like you or me in the right direction.



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Ludwig

07-10-2007 07:14:51




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
Diesel has more power than gas in terms of BTUs. I don't remember the exact number but its something like 30%. Diesel engines also produce more torque.



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Hugh Mackay

07-10-2007 02:24:29




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Tractor Novice, 07-10-2007 02:02:04  
I think you have answered your own question, 30hp is 30 hp. The diesel will have more torque giving it the ability to lug through the tough spots. Basically they a much steadier power.

I can remember when we started seeing our first diesel tractors. We loved them particularly of jobs like hay baling, haybines, etc. One I remember in particular was our Farmall 300 gas, ran the 9' haybine ok, or so we thought until we got a diesel. The 300 would drag down a bit and when the governors hit, it would break a shear bolt. This would happen 5-6 times per day. Later I ran that same haybine with two different diesels, and never broke a shear bolt.

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frankiee

07-10-2007 05:39:08




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Hugh Mackay, 07-10-2007 02:24:29  
Power is work done in a paticular time.
Work is distance times force.

My 12 year old son likely has more power than I when it comes to moving 10 pounds. He could grab 10 pounds and run faster than I could to cross a finish line. I would have more power if we had to move 100 pounds. I would likely cross the finish line first.
Almost like compareing oranges and apples.
Sort of like having an oxen and a horse pulling a paticular plow. At a point they will be able to pull the plow at a particular speed and be neck and neck. Then either make the plow larger or smaller and one or the other will have the advantage.
Consider a diesel a muscle man and a gas engine an thin athlete that can run fast.
Which as more power as you can see it in different situations.

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comfortking

07-10-2007 04:05:40




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Hugh Mackay, 07-10-2007 02:24:29  
Is all horsepower the same? Question: can a 10 horse gas engine do the same work as a 10 HP electric motor on the same task? Is a 300 HP 327 chevy motor able to do the same work as a 300 HP motor in a big ag tractor? We have a little compact 16 horse diesel three cylinder and it seems as though it will produce twice as much as a single 16hp Kohler on the same job.



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souNdguy

07-10-2007 06:32:47




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to comfortking, 07-10-2007 04:05:40  
You can't compair a 16hp riding lawnmower to a 16hp diesel SCUT tractor.

Reason being is the rider mower's engine manufacturer will have specced that '16 hp out as probbaly the max hp that engine could make.. at max ( perhaps not rated ) rpm, no accessories.. possibly even a special fuel and oil, and carb settings... and that power rating wil be taken right befor ethe engine detonates.

Now.. on a tractor.. that 16hp .. may be drawbar, or pto.. or net engine... that's what you got to compair.

Weight becomes a factor too. A 25 hp rider mower from a box store likely have 1/2 or 1/4 the DB hp od a heavier but lower hp scut.. mainly due to weight / traction issues.. etc.

Soundguy

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TomH in PA

07-10-2007 05:13:21




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to comfortking, 07-10-2007 04:05:40  
Is that 300 HP measured the same on both engines, at the same RPM? There's a big difference in the kind of work an engine can do when one develops 300 HP at 2400 RPM and the other develops 300 HP at 8000 RPM.



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suptscottyb

07-10-2007 05:34:53




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to TomH in PA, 07-10-2007 05:13:21  
We have two pickups -one gas, one desiel. Both have 300 hp. Both have been used to pull heavy loads...the desiel out performs the gas - even when it's empty. Of course the desiel truck costs twice as much as the gas...



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Ken Macfarlane

07-10-2007 06:49:19




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to suptscottyb, 07-10-2007 05:34:53  
HP is HP but if you have a quite peaky engine there is not many types of trannies that can keep that engine at its peak hp. After you drop out of that peak there is no going back usually.

Diesel's by nature have really interesting governors and can temporarily exceed their hp rating for brief periods even when wide open. A gas engine can't do anything to increase its output when wide open so they behave much differently.

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Allan In NE

07-10-2007 05:37:35




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to suptscottyb, 07-10-2007 05:34:53  
Went into town yesterday and priced one of those new Duramax outfits.

Now, that will bring a sad tear to your eye. :>)

Allan



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MN Scott

07-10-2007 10:38:27




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 Re: Which has more power, Diesel or gas in reply to Allan In NE, 07-10-2007 05:37:35  
I did the same thing yesterday, priced a Duramax. Wow! 40K+ for a regular cab 4X4! Last time I traded in 2002 it was $12K to boot now he wants $23K to trade. Most likelly driving my last new purchased truck with these crazy prices!



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