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O/T Gas Price Info (long)

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Dennis (VA)

05-23-2007 12:59:57




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Read the previous string on gas price. Below is a article in this weeks Economist which may spread a little light on subject:

A cracking trade
May 17th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Oil refineries are cashing in after years of lacklustre profits


THIS week average petrol (gasoline) prices in America reached a new record of $3.10 a gallon, according to the Department of Energy. Drivers are up in arms and politicians are getting twitchy. Congress is even considering legislation against price-gouging. The culprit is not the oil price, which has hovered above $60 a barrel for months, well below last year's record of $78. Instead the squeeze comes from a shortage of refining capacity. The difference between the price of the crude oil refineries buy, and that of the petrol they sell, has risen above $30 per barrel—a record for this time of year. Refining, long a marginal business, is becoming lucrative.

A number of catalysts are converting refineries into mints. The most immediate factor is an unusually high number of closures for maintenance. Most refineries schedule repairs for the springtime before the summer “driving season” begins. But this year eight times more capacity than usual has been shut down, according to official figures. That is partly because several refineries have still not recovered from accidents, including a deadly explosion at one of BP's American plants in 2005 and a fire at a facility belonging to Valero, another refining firm, earlier this year. Chastened by such disasters and the bad publicity they bring, managers are also taking more time and care over maintenance.

But even at the best of times America is short of refining capacity. No new refinery has been built in the country since the 1970s (though existing ones have expanded somewhat). Meanwhile demand for petrol has grown steadily and remains buoyant despite the high price. Francisco Blanch, an analyst at Merrill Lynch, calculates that a 50% increase in the wholesale price of petrol reduces demand by only 1%. As a result America imports an ever-growing proportion of its petrol, mainly from Europe. But imports are getting more expensive because of the weak dollar. Many refineries in Europe are also in the midst of repairs. Stocks of petrol recently fell almost as low as they did after hurricanes damaged several American refineries in 2005, though they have since picked up slightly.

Around the world there has been little investment in new refineries since the Asian economic crisis of the late 1990s, which saddled the region with huge overcapacity. European refiners also found themselves with too much petrol on their hands in the 1990s, thanks to an unforeseen shift towards cars that run on diesel. Such bountiful supply kept margins low.

But the overhang disappeared faster than expected because of rapid economic growth around the world, and in China in particular. At the same time, ever more exacting fuel specifications in Europe and America have made refineries there less productive. The Chinese government, for its part, caps petrol prices, forcing refineries to sell at a loss, so discouraging investment in new capacity in the world's fastest-growing market. The basic design of many older refineries has also contributed to higher petrol prices. These old refineries tend to churn out more fuel oil than petrol, but can often only sell the fuel oil at a loss. So a very high petrol price is needed to lure them into production.

Refining firms are now falling over themselves to announce new projects or expansions, especially for “upgraders”, which produce higher proportions of the most valuable fuels, including petrol. If all these plans were to be implemented, warns Lindsay Sword of Wood Mackenzie, a consultancy, there would be another glut. But she does not think they will be. Like every other part of the oil industry, refining is suffering from an acute shortage of building materials and skilled labour.

Tesoro, an American refiner, scrapped one scheme last year because of rising costs. Kuwait's national oil company has delayed another for the same reason. As recently as last year, American officials expected 1.6m barrels per day of new refining capacity to be built by 2011. Now they are projecting only two-thirds of that. Merrill Lynch does not see much new upgrading capacity becoming available until 2009 at the earliest. The next few summers will be expensive for America's drivers—and nerve-wracking for its politicians. (Congress just passed a new price gouging bill. I'm real sure that will help.

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RN

05-24-2007 09:24:18




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Dennis (VA), 05-23-2007 12:59:57  
I'll stir the pot a bit- fuel mileage like Europe? Have politicians here pass laws that no automatic transmission gasoline cars can be sold new until 35% of all cars register are diesel powered, drivers licenses to restrict automatic trans drivers- sometimes not allow them in certain areas. Manual transmissions only until 75% of cars on road are manuals. Auto trans for disabled personal only, politicians don't count. Allow Keicars/Cyclecars/Voiterettes only in some areas of cities. Politicians like to pass laws for our own good- let's see how many they can pass before being unelected. RN

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Midwest redneck

05-23-2007 14:26:38




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Dennis (VA), 05-23-2007 12:59:57  
Nice posting...but I need to make my 2 cents heard. 1. The profits of the oil companies are HUGE...to say the least, which means gouging. 2. The refineries purposely shut down capacity during the summer, late spring. Also gouging. The oil companies know that you have to buy the fuel and they know that they can stick it to you. The best thing to do is get US farmers to plant corn and mix ethanol in with the gas to lower the petro amount in the fuel.

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nballen

05-23-2007 15:13:16




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Midwest redneck, 05-23-2007 14:26:38  
You're right that "the oil companies" profits are huge - But it sounds like you are only looking at the gross number, not the % profit - it boils down to "How much revenue was required to create that profit"?

I know you are a sharp guy, but it doesn't sound like you are looking at the whole picture.

If I make a profit of $10 on something, it makes a HUGE difference if I spend $10 making it ($20 sale price - $10 inputs = $10 profits) or if I spend $90 making it ($100 sale price - $90 inputs = $10 profits).

In the first example, I have a 50% profit margin, in the second example, I have a 10% profit margin.

Take a look at the "Cost of Goods Sold" - it will be listed in any publically traded company's financial disclosures. There is more to the story than just the "profit".

(By the way, I can't remember anyone complaining when "Big Oil" couldn't hardly pay their bills because gas prices were "cheap".)

Nathaniel

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NUFSAID

05-23-2007 14:49:17




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Midwest redneck, 05-23-2007 14:26:38  
Get all them farmers to plant corn!!! At the present time ethanol is more expensive than gasoline. Beside, corn has gone uyp at least 50% this year and cereals have gone up and anythhing else with corn in it. Mexico has a corn shortage and is asking their people to switch to flour tortillas. There goes the price of wheat. More cereals are now made of alternative grains because corn is getting too high. The answer is nitrogen fuel cells but no one wants them beacuse they are not in that business. Too many things to change so the greedy bas****ds will not make as much. Get real, we are in a bushel of trouble and we who live on fixed incomes are becoming the poor.

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dds-inc

05-23-2007 17:56:16




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to NUFSAID, 05-23-2007 14:49:17  
There's a severe problem with ethanol, compliments of its benefits.

Planting corn = fuel
harvesting corn = fuel
transporting fuel = fuel
refining ethanol = fuel (from power plants)
mixing it with gas and transportation = fuel

That is a lot of fuel going INTO the process,a nd right now there is not enough fuel being made OUT of the process to even make a profit... sooooo...

the GOVERNMENT is paying people to use ethanol at the present time.

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gene bender

05-23-2007 19:16:41




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to dds-inc, 05-23-2007 17:56:16  
I would sugges you contac the IOWA ETHANOL group and get some straight facts as you dont know the ethanol plants are making good money and the by-products are selling great we get tired of listening to some people who dont even know what a cornfield looks like but he is a expert who lives in NEW YORK or some where and thinks milk comes from the back of the store. Do you have any idea what the by-produsts are after removing the ethanol and where they are used

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JimtNV

05-23-2007 21:30:37




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to gene bender, 05-23-2007 19:16:41  
Ethanol makes good money because the farmers are paid with subsidies.

By-products of ethanol are minimal, with most of it going to feed for animals, improve soil nutrients, and to provide carbon dioxide for soda pops. So minimal, that it's almost not worth the trucking, transport, and refining. But the government tells farmers "yes it pays" like it is some kind of voodoo.

Milk comes from sheep and cornfields are a figment of your imagination.

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IRONSALES

05-23-2007 14:20:55




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Dennis (VA), 05-23-2007 12:59:57  
GO TO YAHOO, TYPE IN GAS AND YOUR ZIP CODE AND AFTER IT SEARCHES, PULL UP TE LIKE THAT IS FROM MSN AUTO'S, IT SHOW'S GAS PRICES IN YOUR AREA



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Andy Motteberg

05-23-2007 13:59:17




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Dennis (VA), 05-23-2007 12:59:57  
Gas here in MN is 3.30 per gallon.



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dds-inc

05-23-2007 13:51:17




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Dennis (VA), 05-23-2007 12:59:57  
I have several points to back up why gas prices are so ridiculously high.

1) Like your original post, gas prices are due in part that there seems to be a lack of refining capabilities. This is due to non-progressing refineries without newer technology and efficiency. To boot, the average gasoline usage per gallon has INCREASED 1% since the all time high of $3.05 a gallon a few weeks ago.

2) People are getting more unorganized with their driving practices. Instead of running weekly/daily errands, they are going from one place to the next every day. (target- families) Additionally, people are turning to vacationing in their cars. Congestion and traffic at lunch times and rush hour times are primitive and rather ignorant.

3) People's driving styles have gotten worse. The gas pedal seems to be an 'on' switch and the brakes seem to be an 'off' switch. Optimum driving speed for excellent fuel mileage is 55 mph in high gear. I have people pass me when I am going 65, sometimes upwards of 90-95 mph. You will use 1/3 as much fuel at any speed above 80.

4) People purchase huge vehicles with V8's just to do errands and haul around children. Us guys probably drive our big trucks to work everyday. I'm not indicating any prejudice about people having their rights to buy huge vehicles; rather, I am making the statement that people are not helping the economy and the environment by choosing such a ridiculously large vehicle. I will say families with more than 4 kids could use an suv. Any less, and all they need is a 4 door sedan. People do not need monstrous hemi's or V-10's UNLESS you do heavy hauling. If you do light hauling, a truck like a 4 cylinder ranger pickup has plenty of power to get it done.

Being one that is not too overly an environmentalist, and one for conserving gas, I suggest that the entire country participate in buying smaller cars. If you take offense towards me about how people cannot afford to buy a smaller car, think about how and why they ended up with a huge, expensive SUV in the first place.

It is time to progress towards conserving, but apparently, the U.S. is too darned ignorant, because as I have stated, gas usage has INCREASED by 1%. And the possibility of anyone getting more conservative with gas? -VERY SLIM CHANCE, unless, there is government intervention.

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Cosmo

05-23-2007 15:41:49




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to dds-inc, 05-23-2007 13:51:17  
"Us guys probably drive our big trucks to work everyday." Yes I'm one that does that. I bought a 12 year old full size Chevy truck about five years ago when gas was a dollar. So I need to get out of it and fork over 20K (which I don't have) for a little pipsqueak auto to get a few more miles to the gallon? Not likely. As far as driving less; any less and I'd have to stay home from work. Now that's a thought. Maybe if everyone in the whole country had the balls to do that for a week it might get someone's attention. Regards, Cosmo

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cosmo

05-23-2007 17:52:52




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Cosmo, 05-23-2007 15:41:49  
YES, Cosmo, that is the whole thing I was trying to avoid an arguement about. NO, I don't expect you to fork over some big bucks for a little midget car. I was merely making the suggestion to slack off on the truck and buy an older fuel efficient car, Last year my cousin bought a nice little '90 sentra nissan with 100,000 miles that did well on gas for $575.

I am, however, agreeing with you about how the country needs to get balls and do exactly what you said.

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dds-inc

05-23-2007 17:57:10




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to cosmo, 05-23-2007 17:52:52  
I WROTE THE ABOVE STATEMENT, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY IT SAYS COSMO'S NAME!!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!



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Chief Lou

05-23-2007 17:12:27




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Cosmo, 05-23-2007 15:41:49  
Cosmo says; "I bought a 12 year old full size Chevy truck about five years ago when gas was a dollar. So I need to get out of it and fork over 20K (which I don't have) for a little pipsqueak auto to get a few more miles to the gallon? Not likely. As far as driving less; any less and I'd have to stay home from work."

His point Cosmo, was do you _need_ to drive the full size truck to work every day?

I have a 1989 C3500 which I bought 3 years ago, when gas was $2 a gallon. But I use it when I need to haul something heavy. When I drive myself to work, I don't consider myself a legitimate 1-ton load, so I drive a 16 year old Corolla, which I bought 5 years ago for $2000.

The truck gets 12 mpg (or less when loaded). The car gets 32 mpg.

His point was, you don't need a brand-new "pipsqueak" auto to get "a few more miles to the gallon", but you could buy a used "pipsqueak" and save enough money on gas to pay for it in a couple of years...

Instead of snapping at him, you might want to think about it.

Regards.

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Cosmo

05-24-2007 18:15:05




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 Re: O/T Gas Price Info (long) in reply to Chief Lou, 05-23-2007 17:12:27  
Thanks for the come-uppance. I did think about it. I didn't realize I was snapping. So solly. Cosmo



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