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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

oil bath or dry element

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kyle boettcher

04-03-2007 18:28:38




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what is better and why oil bath or new style air cleaner, i'm thinking of putting a dry air breather on instead of oil bath. I would like to here more on what is the best oil for these old tractors before I make up my mind. Or if any thing what not to use and why. Thanks




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JDB

04-04-2007 10:29:13




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  

5 microns
Cost about $50
Old tractor seams to breath better.
I like it but to each their own



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cargocult

04-04-2007 04:25:45




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
The Main reason they went to the Paper Filters is to screw the customer! Instead of changin' a few ounces of commonly-available Motor Oil..ya now hafta buy a paper filter at an exorbitant cost!! That's why they are eliminatin' da OB filters! If ya gots a OB filter.....use it.



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dds-inc

04-04-2007 10:56:57




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to cargocult, 04-04-2007 04:25:45  
the reason they quit Oil bath is because paper is easier to 'clean' and that oil bath does weird things when the tractor is on hillsides and stuff.



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dhermesc

04-04-2007 06:11:31




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to cargocult, 04-04-2007 04:25:45  
Given the price of oil a paper filter isn't that much more expensive (on my cars). Couple that with the size a oil bath unit has to be (especially on today's high HP cars) and the lack of room under the hood you'd be hard pressed to save anything.



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Jim.UT

04-04-2007 08:43:56




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to dhermesc, 04-04-2007 06:11:31  
I just changed the oil on my '69 Dodge D300. I also changed the oil in the air cleaner. It took exactly 1 quart. Even if I paid full price that only comes to $1.99. A paper element filter costs about $5 or more now.

Plus I usually buy my oil when Checker has a 69 cent rebate deal.



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dhermesc

04-04-2007 11:46:31




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to Jim.UT, 04-04-2007 08:43:56  
I said modern engine.

Open the hood on a new Dodge and try to find room for the aircleaner that is in your D300. Then compare the air intake on an old engine to a new one, the oil bath unit would need to be proportionately larger as well with a larger volume.



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RAB

04-03-2007 23:39:13




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
A few misconceptions down here but most are covered in other posts although it is not always possible to know which post is right, when they contradict each other!
B&D is a bit extreme when he compares one to t"other. The dry filter IS more efficient than an oil bath type. It does collect SMALLER particles as well. Don"t now what your "mil" is but particles down to upper single micron numbers are typical for a dry and a bit more for a wet - a micron is one millionth of a metre. Oil baths were not used for turbo engines as the oil mist would erode the impellor - anything will erode an impellor at 100,000 rpm and there is always some carry-over! There is no more chance of drawing the oil into the engine than on a normally aspirated engine, given the cleaner is sized correctly. So, yes a dry element is better, but the oil bath was perfectly adequate for the engine tolerances of the day. Lastly I know not how the differences in pressure drop across the various devices compare, but the oil bath type would only clog up when not working, too late to stop dirty air into the engine if pressure drop was used as a service indicator. The original reason for change to dry filtration? - probably initial production costs, as a tin box was cheaper than it"s predecessor. Or maybe Japanese motorcyles! Add to that other advantages, which came later, like access, shape (squeezing it under the bonnet), size, closer mechanical tolerances, waste disposal, it has been a good progression.
Regards, RAB

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buickanddeere

04-03-2007 22:45:07




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
The oil bath was used initially because they wasn't any other type of air filtraton that worked. It could also be serviced in primitive conditions by unskilled labour without parts or tools and just required some oil. On the other hand dry filters are used today because. They remove more dirt,flow more air for a given size and they have become much cheaper/better. An oil bath aircleaner vs a quality dry filter is like comparing an outhouse to a indoor bathroom with running water.

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Hal/WA

04-03-2007 22:37:05




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
I like the oil bath type, and like the convenience of being able to clean it myself for just the price of a little oil. I also think the oil bath type catches smaller particles of dust that might get past a dry element. But sometimes it is not easy to find an oil bath air cleaner if they are gone from an old rig. If you have the oil bath that was made for your tractor, I would suggest carefully cleaning the sludge off the packing with solvent and clean the oil cup and then fill it up to the proper level with engine oil. It will probably work fine for as long as you want it to.

If you don't have the right oil bath air cleaner and can't find one that will work, the you might have to use some kind of a dry filter system. I would suggest using the largest one you can find, and one that uses easy to get and inexpensive elements. You will be replacing the elements fairly often if you work the tractor in very dusty conditions. But most retrofits of dry element air cleaners on old tractors I have seen look very Mickey Mouse and stick out like a sore thumb. Good luck!

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RustyFarmall

04-03-2007 21:37:20




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
The oil bath is much more efficient at catching the dirt. The only reason the mfgrs. went to the dry type is because of the addition of turbos. The turbo had a tendency to pull the oil out of the air cleaner.



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RodInNS

04-03-2007 21:06:54




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
I don't know if I'd bother changing from one to the other.... if it has an oil bath, I'd probably leave it alone and not worry about it.
However..... You've got to look at facts too. I would suggest that nearly every production engine today (at least in ag/industrial applications) is equipped with a two stage dry element, often with a cyclone pre-cleaner. Add to that fact that engines are clocking more hours than they ever have in the past before major overhauls..... Take that for what it's worth, but I tend to think that there's some adavantage to dry element air filters.

Rod

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msb

04-03-2007 20:27:07




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
Was told in Deere service school years ago ,the dry type is far superior at catching dirt and dust. They said that dirt could get past the oil and not be trapped in the oil. I can see how that could easily happen.



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melh

04-03-2007 20:13:12




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
It's been my experience that the dry type is far superior! We run motorscrapers in very dusty conditions. Years ago, we had three with oil bath cleaners, had to clean & change oil every 8 hours. The very principle of a oil bath is having a lot of surface for the particles to bump into and for the oil to wash them down to the pan.The dry type stops particles by forcing all of the air to go though very small holes (3 mil). When the dry type plugs up it starves the engine for air and the operator can know to service it. When the oil bath "plugs" up it channels the air without any restriction. If you go the dry route get one that has cyclone precleaners and is designed for your engine displacement and is for extreme duty.

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Steven@AZ

04-03-2007 19:30:54




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
Let's see... the old tractors from the 40's and 50's had oil bath air cleaners (many of which probably weren't serviced properly) and those tractors are still going 60 years later... I'll keep my oil bath on my H's.



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old

04-03-2007 19:18:06




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
The dry element type are ok for cars and trucks but for a tractor you need the oil bath type. The reason is that cars and trucks don't see as much dust as and old tractor does. Oil bath types clean out the dust better then a dry elemnet type will and thats a big deal when it come to engine life

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Coloken

04-03-2007 19:11:35




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to kyle boettcher, 04-03-2007 18:28:38  
I liked my Case 930 comfort king. It had a dry filter outside the hood, backed up by an oil bath. Yea, some times there was collection in the oil bath.



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Don-Wi

04-04-2007 00:45:36




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to Coloken, 04-03-2007 19:11:35  
Wouldn't that have just been a pre-cleaner if it was above the hood? Either way, those precleaners are great- can really tell a difference between the filters that have them ahead vs those that don't...

Donovan from Wisconsin



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Jerrycpp(WA)

04-04-2007 07:57:37




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to Don-Wi, 04-04-2007 00:45:36  
Many years ago, when NAPA changed over to thier own brand of filters (WIX)they had a study that showed paper filters usually have an efficiency of about 98%, while oil bath runs between 20 and 35%. Oil "bath" is a misnomer. The air is not bathed. The incoming air changes direction and centrifugal force flings the dirt particles into the oil. At idle the oil bath filter is next to useless. It is most efficient at high air flow. Paper filters the same at any air flow. Use NON-detergent oil in an oil bath as that oil allows the dirt to settle. Detergent keeps it in suspension. In the dryland farming country they used to put an oil bath on top of a stack that fed the semi-cleaned oil to a paper filter - sort of a pre-cleaner.

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Don-Wi

04-04-2007 11:13:08




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to Jerrycpp(WA), 04-04-2007 07:57:37  
JUst remembered something else I learned on how an oil bath filter works- The oil gets drawn up into the wire mesh- so not much oil is actually in the cup when the engine is running full rated rpm's- Dirt gets trapped in the oil up in the mesh (TONS of surface area while up there) The only real way for the dirt to get back down is when the tractor is shut down and the oil drains back to the cup.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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Don-Wi

04-04-2007 11:09:48




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 Re: oil bath or dry element in reply to Jerrycpp(WA), 04-04-2007 07:57:37  
I use the same oil that I do in the crankcase, and I've never had a problem with the dirt not settling out- Dirt is much bigger then what would accumulate in an engine's oil so the dirt settles out just fine in detergent oil.

Everytime I change the bath oil I have to take the cup to the parts washer to get all the dirt out of the cup and clean it up.

Donovan from Wisconsin



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