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Do newer machines use altenators or generators

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frankiee

03-06-2007 20:00:35

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Does the big newer machinery charge and run by a generator or by an alternator?
In your opinion, what is better.

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Word Man

03-07-2007 11:29:43

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

Actually, if you read any factory Delco repair information, you will see that alternators are actually generators by definition. That is to say, you would not be wrong in referring to an alternator as a generator. By strict definition, an alternator is one form of generator. The reverse cannot be said.

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Mike M

03-07-2007 05:58:21

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

Alternators hold up better in the dust and dirt for sure. And about everything has one on today.

Unless you look in a GM parts catalog then they still refer to everything as generators.Which there not ! Shows you how backwards their parts system is ! I heard that Chrysler owned the name alternator so GM can't use it ? I have no idea if this is why or not ?

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Jon Hagen

03-06-2007 20:56:43

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

Farm tractors converted from generators to alternators in the late 60's.
With that conversion, charging system troubles/repairs dropped by 90%

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 11:25:25

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-06-2007 20:56:43

Just to clarify, and I think, sort out what looks like a misunderstanding in terminology. When you say 'farm' tractors.. are you refering to the 200-300-400-500-600 hp range.. and not 'farm' tractor in the 20-100 hp range, like a farmer with tens or perhaps maybee a couple hundred ac might have ... My comments about gennies in use in the 70's on farm tractors was aimed at the latter range. If that was the misunderstanding.. then I'm apologizing.

Soundguy

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 06:37:55

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-06-2007 20:56:43

Hmm.. can't say that i agree with that statement. My ford 5000 is a 1975 model, and has it's OEM lucas generator still on it. 75' is quite a ways from 'late 60's '

Soundguy

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Glen in TX

03-07-2007 10:18:34

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 06:37:55

Lucas stuff came from England and always a PIB to get parts for here usually. At least was on a Case/David Brown we once had. I finally changed to a different more affordable alternator on it.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 11:14:46

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Glen in TX, 03-07-2007 10:18:34

I've had much better luck with gennies than alterantors over the years. Counting personal vehicles and farm tractors I've had to have a couple gennies rebuilt and purchased a couple regs.. all for less than the price of any alternator I've ever purchased. I've driven gm trucks, ford trucks and dodge trucks that have all had their oem alternator repalced once, and had a gm car that got alternators atout as often as tires. My wifes lincoln is also on it's 3rd alternator ( about a 300$ unit I might add.. luckilly one of them was a parts warranty though i had to still pay labor..for the changeout. )

I think I'll still take a generator on an old piece of equipment most of the time where enormouse power generation isn't necescary. As long as the brushes and 'copper' are good int he gen.. yo can still get home even if the regulator dies, with a bit of creative wireing .. I'm not sure there are many 'field' fixes i could do on an alternator without having a bench, box of tools and correct parts for that application.. however a coat hanger and an ignition resistor will work in place of an external regualtor in a pinch.

In any event, i think it's safe to say that there was a bit of misunderstanding when dealing with the scope of the reply JH made and my reply to him.

Soundguy

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Jon Hagen

03-07-2007 06:56:07

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 06:37:55

I was thinking US built tractors,some of the stuff from accross the pond does show a 10-15 year lag in technology.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 07:10:27

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-07-2007 06:56:07

This is a US market 5000.. not a super major 5000..

Besides.. looking in some of my tractor manuals.. gennies into the 70's seem common. My 1966 IH cub is sporting a 12v genny... 66 was the first year of the 12v gennies for them.. previous to that they used 6v gennies.. and that's late 60's.. just then converting to 12v from 6.. and deffinately an american market product.. I'll have to check my ford manuals and see what the X6XX series from 76 and up were equipped with.

Soundguy

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Jon Hagen

03-07-2007 07:39:15

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 07:10:27

Just goes to show ones experience of "here VS there" I never had to deal with the "yard toys" that still ran generators or even 6V into the 70,s. Any of the tractors I had to deal with, had 60 + HP even back in the mid 60's and you rarely saw anything like that without an alternator after about 65-66.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 07:58:42

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-07-2007 07:39:15

Yard toys?

A ford 5000 is deffinately not a yard toy.. The diesel engine produced 70 net flywheel hp, 67 pto hp and 60 drawbar hp??

You may have your own opinions.. but there is no need to be insulting or condescending.. and your opinion that a 70 eng hp machine is a yard toy.. well.. i just don't feel that is the general consensus.

Any other people care to chime in? Is 70 hp a yard toy?

Soundguy

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Jon hagen

03-07-2007 08:44:44

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 07:58:42

Oh don't get bent out of shape, I said a perception of here VS there. In your area a Ford 5000 at 75 hp might be hell on wheels,but here it could not drag many large farm impliments around the parking lot with nothing but the machines tires touching the ground. The original post asked about alternator's on larger newer tractors, to me that means a "small" 2wd of 175-200 hp,or a "medium" 4wd of 300-400 hp on 8 tires . The "large newer" stuff around here is 500-600 hp on 4 tracks or 12 tires. What is considered a "large newer" tractor in your area will vary with the intended use and farm size.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 10:30:09

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon hagen, 03-07-2007 08:44:44

Well I'll agree that our perception of small/large is deffinately going to have to be spelled out to be application specific next time we talk. I guess small could be clearly referred to as SCUT, with up to mid 20's hp, CUT, up to mid 40's hp, and UT up into the 70-s / 80's hp, and AG anything from there and up. Hitch category could also be used to clear things up.

To be fair.. you were the person that threw out the '60 hp' number as a basis of discussion.

My point of contention was that there certaintly were many common examples of generators in use on farm tractors in the mid 70's For clarification that would be cut, ut and small AG, under 100 hp. My points did not focus on any elements of the original posters question, but merely your reply that genies were pretty much extinct in the late 60's.. etc.

And yes.. for reference.. in florida.. you don't see any large acerage farms save a very few. mos of our farms ar in the 'tens' of ac.. thus you see lots of SCUT and CUT tractors... UT's on some large acerage mowing or hay operations, as well as some AG in certain areas. Sounds like you live in an eare where there may be more 400-600 hp tractors in a city or county than in my entire state.

Soundguy

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Jon Hagen

03-07-2007 13:46:22

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 10:30:09

Sorry if it sounded like I was talking down to the owner of a small utility tractor. I guess we live in different worlds, and I should realize that the large tractors that are so common in my area are as rare in your area as the little ones are in mine. About the smallest viable farm in this area is 2000 acres with the norm being about 5000 acres and the big boys farming 10-20,000 acres,so equippment needs are very different. glad we can talk about the things that are similar and different between our areas.
I don't enjoy a huffing and hissing match all that much either, so i will try to better understand where the other guy is comming from before running my mouth.

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soundguy

03-07-2007 14:49:49

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Jon Hagen, 03-07-2007 13:46:22

I -wish- we had farms like that in my area. I envy you in that respect. I really don't want to huff and blow either. Lets say we 'shake' on it and keep talking about the farms, big and small.

Soundguy

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frankiee

03-07-2007 08:36:01

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Re: Do newer machines use alternators or generator in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 07:58:42

Thank you everyone
I think I got that cleared up now.
What I call alternators are here and what I call generators are gone now.
I find that even portable generators have the field as the rotor.
My confusion mostly lay with my electrical teacher saying that the generator producing a "better" quality current. So I "assumed" that alternators were a cheaper more versatile way to produce current and that larger units could still use a generator for a "quality" power production.
I was wrong. I don't know what my electrical teacher was saying by "a better quality current"
I guess I will never know.
I think if everyone is using alternators where the armature is stationary and the field is rotating then that must be a better way.
Thank you
Question answered

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Sid

03-06-2007 20:40:18

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

I don't know when the everything went to alternators. But I am not aware of anything that uses a generator today. It is my opinion based on my experience that alternators are more durable and more reliable than the old generators. One thing that I liked about the old generators was the fact that they did not have to spin as fast to produce power. You can pull start a tractor with a completely dead battery that has a generator. You can not do that with an alternator. To me that would be an advantage of a generator over an alternator. But as I said I have had a lot less trouble with alternators as compared to generators.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 10:35:36

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Sid, 03-06-2007 20:40:18

I'm wondering about the durability part.. especially when it comes to fault tolerance. i think the generators easilly have an upper hand in fault tolerance.

Ever hook an alternator up backwards.. It takes? what? about 1-2 seconds before all the smoke shoots out of the diode trio? Gennies are pretty tolerant in that respect. mostly if the brushes and bushings are in decent shape.. they make power. i agree they are no matchinthe power generation capabilities at low rpm as an alternator though... A tradeoff i guess. component fault tolerance in exchange for increased current output.

Soundguy

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georgeky

03-06-2007 21:37:08

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Sid, 03-06-2007 20:40:18

I have never got one to start on a dead battery unless it had a mag on it. I have some with altenators and some with genny's and none of them will start with a dead battery. Just my experience with them.

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bannered in boston

03-06-2007 21:27:09

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Sid, 03-06-2007 20:40:18

Oh poppykosh and balder dash.

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Sid

03-06-2007 20:39:52

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

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ebbsspeed

03-06-2007 20:24:02

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to frankiee, 03-06-2007 20:00:35

Is this a serious question?

Alternators are used to charge the batteries and run the electrical equipment on virtually any machine nowdays, including the smallest of single cylinder lawnmower engines with electrical accessories. I'm not sure what you mean by the "run by" part of your question, but most machines are run by either gasoline or diesel engines, with a smaller percentage using LP or NG.

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souNdguy

03-07-2007 06:39:29

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to ebbsspeed, 03-06-2007 20:24:02

What about untis with starter generators? Generators motor.. motors will generate.

i don't see too many alternators that will motor.. do you?

Soundguy

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Ken Macfarlane

03-07-2007 08:56:31

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to souNdguy, 03-07-2007 06:39:29

Not on a tractor no, but outside of the auto world alternating generators can generate just fine.

Generators problem is they need high rpm to get high amps, alternators have a certain speed they have to get over before producing but once over it they can generate large amounts of current throughout the engines operating range.

I can leave all the field lights and cab blower on full tilt with my engine at idle and not run my battery down. Try that on a generator tractor for any length of time and you'll find a dead battery in a hurry.

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Ken Macfarlane

03-07-2007 08:58:08

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Re: Do newer machines use altenators or generators in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 03-07-2007 08:56:31

We'll try that again, that is ac generators (alternator) make great motors too. Just not the ones used on tractors.

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