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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ???

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Sam F.

03-05-2007 10:05:36




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I sold a fellow 4 tractors to be shipped at his expense from California to Missouri. He paid a $1100 deposit. He had agreed to make another $1000 deposit in 2 months if tractors were not picked up. When I reminded him the payment was 2 weeks late, he got a little abusive and I told him I didn't want to hear any of his sh**. He told me to kiss his a**. Then he sends me another email stating he had forgotten the deal already. But now, 2 days later he is harrasssing me for his deposit. Should I refund his deposit after holding the tractors for 3 months for him?? One of them I could have sold in the meantime. Let me know what you guys think.

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B-maniac

03-05-2007 17:44:03




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Kind of obvious what the "dealer" was doing. I'm sure he didn't go to California to see/drive these 4 tractors. He basically "bought" himself time to resell them for the sum of $1100 and wasn't going to haul them twice. No tractors sell before the second installment is due so he just rides it hoping to sell something. He had no intention of hauling any of them until he sold ALL of them. The guy just got caught by the unstable economy at something he has been doing quite profitably in the past. KEEP the deposit! You were being a pawn in his little board game. HE LOST!!! He's NOT going to pursue it , but he will try to intimidate you. It's cheap for him to do that. Do NOT answer his e-mails or letters or calls. He cannot intimidate you if he cannot contact you.

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D.B.in Mi.

03-05-2007 17:37:26




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
It has always been my understanding that a deposit is a verbal contract to purchase your item. If the buyer does not come thru with the rest of the payment in an alotted time the buyer forfeits his deposit. While you are holding the items for him , that he did not finish paying off, you might have sold that item to someone else. I say you are safe to keep it and I think if you were to contact someone in the law field , they would probably tell you the same thing.

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dave guest

03-05-2007 16:39:51




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Banker? With no illness or mental problems? He is at your mercy.



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dave guest

03-05-2007 16:39:28




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Banker? With no illness or mental problems? He is at your mercy.



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mj

03-05-2007 15:47:01




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Keep it .... like Barretta used to say "If ya can't pay the price, don't roll the dice."



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Roy Suomi

03-05-2007 15:11:12




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Keep it....Whats he gonna do , Kick your a$$????I sold my old service truck to a young ironworker..He put a 500 dollar deposit down , with the balance due in 2 weeks....Well , the 2 weeks came and went..Finally on the 3rd week I was able to contact him.. The job they were banking on fell through[ to pay for the truck]..I told him several people looked at the truck after he put money down[ truth]..After talking to him we both decided I was to keep the down payment..He wasn't happy but , I could have sold it to someone else in the meantime...If I buy something with a down payment to seal the deal , I'll have the balance on time..No Games!!

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Dave from MN

03-05-2007 13:02:03




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Watch Judge Judy!



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Hard Knocks

03-05-2007 12:10:39




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
The deposit was part of a contract to buy your tractors.If he will not hold up his end of the baragin then he broke the contract and I would say you are entitled to keep the money.



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Turke Bros. Farms

03-05-2007 12:06:17




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
No dobt about it! Dont return it! In 3 months you lost business they all could have been sold. And he doesnt remember buying 3 trators COME ON. He remembers..his wife probably reminded him every day since. I had a 94 ford stake truck like that one time. I sold it 3or 4 times people gave deposits and never came back. Good luck selling your tractors.



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TomTX

03-05-2007 11:38:13




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Not quite sure about all this, but, NEXT TIME put in writing that the depoist in nonrefundable in whole or in part, if on or before a certain date he has not paid the balance due and picked up the merchandise. Further write that in the event he does not pay balance by due date, the deposit will be kept by seller as payment for keeping product off market. Have buyer sign and return original. Best to avoid problems. Tom

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dhermesc

03-05-2007 11:22:55




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Tell him to read his contract.

You indicate that you have a paper contract that has all the T's crossed and the I's dotted. If your contract is spelled out right it will state that the deposit is compensation for HOLDING the tractors for a certain amount of time and not selling the tractors. Most sales contracts state the amount of the deposit will be credited towards the purchase when paid in full. They don't have to explicitly say that the deposit will be forfeited (but it should) if no sale takes place but it does have to say that it was for holding the merchandise.

He paid you to hold the tractors and you held them. Send him a nice card thanking him for his business.

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John T Country Lawyer

03-05-2007 11:11:53




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Sam, You got any written agreement or is this all verbal or e mail or what???

Not knowing the particulars or your states law I can still take a "guess" and state (and it depends on the Judge if any had to decide this) theres a decent chance you could keep it as a matter of law (depends on your agreement and verbal is okay but you have the "he said she said" problem absent any writing). This is whats called a "Fact Sensitive" legal problem and the result can depend on several factors such as the agreement and understanding and each parties reasonable expectations and in the absence of specific or written terms, the Court has to fill in the blanks.

NOW to the PRACTICAL side of things, since you have the deposit and tractors in your posession, the onus is upon him to get it back which could cost him legal expense and time plus HE COULD STILL LOOSE if he chose to litigate. Its best for him (and he may come to realize that if he seeks legal advice) financially n practically to NOT loose the deposit by realizing hes EITHER gonna have to cough up the rest of the cash to get the tractors n avoid forfeiting the depoist or else kiss it good bye or else spend a ton of attorney n court fees to take a chance he "MIGHT" get it back. ($2000 in legal fees is hard to justify a CHANCE getting $1000 back)

The law of your state and or a Judge may require (in case you can NOT retain the deposit) you to Mitigate Damages meaning at the least any expenses you spend to readvertise or resell would be retained by you even if you had to return the deposit.

I belive if it were me Id send him a registered letter return receipt (Green Card) clearly stating your position (to retain the deposit unkless) to try n build a paper trail and avoid "he said she said" problems from now on and try n force him in the position to either pay the balance or forfeit the deposit or hire an attorney and thennnnn nn the balls in his court. Its in your interest to show it was trouble n expense n possibly you lost other sales cuz you took "justifiable reliance" on his agreement (that was your understanding of the deal) the deposit was to hold for him for a certain time period or else you retain the depost as return consideration for keeping the tracors OFF the market..... .....

FINAL WARNING both the Law and most Judges ABHOR A FORFEITURE and often do what it takes to avoid such a harsh result (i.e. you retain the deposit) UNLESS the facts show you exercised good faith and have "clean hands" and may have lost another sale opportunity and suffered time n expense as a result of his backing out of the deal.

You can obviously keep it unless n until a Court of competent jurisdiction orders its return, so make him get that or shut up or pay the balance, or of course, if your conscience or faith requires otherwise, RETURN IT !!!!! !! Theres another problem of Jurisdiction since this involves citizens of different states and Im unsure of your atates Long Arm statutes.

You can obviously keep it unless n until a Court orders otherwise and make him do all the work to take a "chance" of getting it back.

John T Country Lawyer

PS This advice is worth what I charged ABSOLUTELY NOTHING seek LOCAL counsel who knows your states laws BEFORE making any decision.

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Pete7

03-06-2007 08:50:13




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to John T Country Lawyer, 03-05-2007 11:11:53  
Is there much of a difference between the terms "down" and "deposit"? I've usually used the term "down", cause I thought it more clearly showed that the item was sold, but more money still needed to be paid. But, I'm not sure about this. Any thoughts on this?
Pete



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Mike (WA)

03-05-2007 12:23:26




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to John T Country Lawyer, 03-05-2007 11:11:53  
Worst case scenario- he will sue you in small claims court in your home state (he has no jurisdiction over you in his state, unless you have a business presence in, or "significant contacts" with, that state). Even if he wins, he gets only the deposit back, plus minimal filing fees- and would have to travel to your state to do it. Chances of him doing it are slim to none. BTW, I'd be willing to bet he found the cost of shipping would be as much as the tractors are worth, and bailed out. You can sometimes get a "deal" on one tractor, to fill out a load- but 4 is a load by themselves, so no "deals".

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ohiomikey

03-05-2007 10:59:28




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
put them back up for sale. once you sell them (again) if u feel generous then go ahead and refund him the money... it really all depends on whether the guy thought it was a 'refundable' deposit



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benny2

03-05-2007 10:56:32




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 Well you know Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ?? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Well you know you may well be within you legal rights to keep the deposit. What everybody else said I believe to be right. But this thing could get ugly, the question is do you want to spend a lot of time dealing with this ahole. Myself I would just chalk it up to experience send the money back get a signed release and receipt call it a day. In light of not having a written sales contract he may be able to make a weak case against you. That is enough to tie you up for years in court. A $1000 bucks is pocket change when it comes to court time! right!!

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Dig It

03-05-2007 11:07:04




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 Re: Well you know Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or N in reply to benny2, 03-05-2007 10:56:32  
Tied up in court for years?

First, any court proceedings would be done in the home state of the seller. Who will hire a lawyer and go to court halfway across the country for a thousand dollars?

Let's say the guy did hire a lwayer. He would have to pay for him plus any travel expenses incurred. If by some chance he was successful in court the most the judgement could be for would be the amount of the deposit. He will not be awarded damages or attornies fees.

If some ahole backed out on a deal with me and became rude, as this guy apparently did, I would tell him to try to collect and wish him the best of luck.

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Sam F.

03-05-2007 10:59:37




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 Re: Well you know Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or N in reply to benny2, 03-05-2007 10:56:32  
Everything, and I mean everything, was done by email, so I do have committments in writing. NO phone calls whatsoever. The agreement was totally spelled out, in writing, and his acceptance was, "we have a deal".



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Ken B.

03-05-2007 12:57:32




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 Re: Well you know Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or N in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:59:37  
It appears and I agree you have the right to keep the deposit (I would) If it bothers you to keep it send it back or part. Do what makes you sleep well at night. I would keep and sleep like a baby. Looks like yall made a deal he should do his part (you did yours) or suck it up. Ken B.



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Doug in IL

03-05-2007 10:45:54




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
No, don't refund it. That's the very reason for a deposit. To make sure that the deal is completed. The money is your's to keep. Go ahead and sell the tractors to other customers. If he refuses to abide by your terms, by not sending the additional $1000, he has violated the agreement. That's what I would do, anyway.



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bannered in boston

03-05-2007 10:57:22




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Doug in IL, 03-05-2007 10:45:54  
Man you play rough. I thought the purpose of a deposit was to hold the merchandise so that it couldn't be sold to someone else. Selling the merchandise would constitue a breach of promise on both sides. By all means sell the tractor to anyone who has the money, but if it is sold be prepared to refund the deposit. Oh and don't give advice based on one side of the equation.



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Doug in IL

03-05-2007 11:57:12




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to bannered in boston, 03-05-2007 10:57:22  
Not really playing rough. If you read the original post, the "buyer" has indicated he is "forgetting about the deal". In other words he no longer wants the tractors. He also indicated, and reinforced, that fact by not paying the rest of the deposit when it was due two weeks ago. The "buyer" has backed out of the deal. Now he wants his deposit back. A deposit is NOT to hold merchandise for 3 months and then have the buyer decide "Oh! I don't think I want it now!" That's the problem the deposit is designed to avoid. Go order a new pickup from a Ford, Chevy or Dodge dealer. He will probably require a deposit to obtain the truck. The vehicle arrives. You decide you don't want it. You are probably not going to see that deposit money again! In this case, the "buyer" has forfieted the deposit in the same way.

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bannered in boston

03-05-2007 14:33:30




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Doug in IL, 03-05-2007 11:57:12  
A deposit is to hold the merchandise. I did read the original post and read a lot of what wss not being said. Have you done business with Sam? Have you ever tried to consumate a deal with Sam. Have you seen the merchandise? Sounds to me like the Peurto Villarta squeeze to me. Maybe the buyer figures that he is better of cutting his losses. I will be interested to know how this one comes out. If you were the one that stood to loose your deposit would your advice be the same? The deposit insures that the merchandise can not be sold to another. If I were to drive up to Sam's and hand him over 4100 the contract would be complete and according to your conclusion it would just be hard feces on the fellow who made the original overture. Would Sam be willing to live up to that and part with the tractors? Maybe Sam can fill us in on the person he is dealing with so we can avoid this kind of headache in the future.

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Doug in IL

03-05-2007 16:04:44




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to bannered in boston, 03-05-2007 14:33:30  
I'm just telling you the legal facts. (4 lawyers in the family, one my brother) I've been down this deposit road before. Personally, I look at these things on an individual basis. I had a guy buy, and pay in full, for a JD 4 row planter and matching cultivator once. He told me he would be back for it 2 or 3 weeks. 13 years later, I had the boy's haul them to a consignment sale. That was 3 years ago. If he ever shows up, I'll give him what we got for them at the sale. If someone pays me in full for something, I'll let it set forever, basically. A deposit deal is just that. I'm not going to sit on MY money much longer than the agreed to deposit time period. You just can't. If you do, you'll end up with a lot of money and space tied up for who knows how long. That's why a deposit is asked for in the first place.

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bannered in boston

03-05-2007 20:26:42




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Doug in IL, 03-05-2007 16:04:44  
Well, thanks for the free legal lesson. It was certainly worth the money.



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Doug in IL

03-06-2007 05:07:36




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to bannered in boston, 03-05-2007 20:26:42  
You're welcome! Glad to help! LOL!



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CENTAUR

03-05-2007 10:29:12




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Since he broke the agreement it null and void. I would keep.CENTAUR



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georgeky

03-05-2007 10:25:45




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
I dont know about legality, but I agree with Dig It. He should honor his deal. If you did I would think you are entitled to keep it after waiting for three months and costing you a sell time is money. If you buy a house on a land contract and dont continue to make payments you have to forfeit the house and the money you have paid.



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Sam F.

03-05-2007 10:56:56




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to georgeky, 03-05-2007 10:25:45  
I will add hopefully, one more thing. This fellow is a banker, no name, so he understands totally about deposits.



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Dig It

03-05-2007 11:34:07




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:56:56  
Well if he is a banker then you got it made. Just use the same tactics a bank does. Tell him there were about a million different hidden fees and they have eaten up the deposit. :>)



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John e.c.MI

03-05-2007 10:24:47




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 Keep it. in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
The deposit is to seal the deal. When I give a deposit I assume it is use it or loose it.



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John e.c.MI

03-05-2007 10:31:52




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 clearification... in reply to John e.c.MI, 03-05-2007 10:24:47  
Under extenuating circumstances(death, non self-inflicted misfortune) I might be inclined to return it. If he is being a butthead, keep it and don't look back. My dad taught me when you tell somebody you'll do something(buy the tractor in this case) you do it.



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Walt Davies

03-05-2007 10:14:40




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
It all depends on whether the deposit was refundable or not. If the buyer was under the assumption that it was refundable then you owe it to him if not them its up to you to determine how much if any will be refunded.
Walt



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Sam F.

03-05-2007 10:21:18




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Walt Davies, 03-05-2007 10:14:40  
There was never any mention of refundable or not.What is the purpose of a deposit ?? I thought that it was to secure a deal. So, if I buy a tractor from you for say $3000 and put down a $500 depsoit, after 3 months I change my mind, since we didn't talk about refundable or not, all I have to do is request my deposit back and you are left holding your tractor for 3 months, for nothing in return ?? If you place a deposit on a house, do you think the bank will give you your deposit back, just because you changed your mind ?? What is the difference??

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Walt Davies

03-05-2007 13:15:42




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:21:18  
Deposits in Oregon and Calif. are refundable if you change your mind or the time runs out.
Walt



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Walt Davies

03-05-2007 13:16:50




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Walt Davies, 03-05-2007 13:15:42  
on houses or property. sorry.



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IaGary

03-05-2007 10:09:26




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
I might refund part of it.

What was the total sale price?



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Sam F.

03-05-2007 10:14:29




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to IaGary, 03-05-2007 10:09:26  
$5100.00. What is deposit for ??



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Bannered in boston

03-05-2007 11:55:04




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:14:29  
Would you now be willing to sell the tractor for 4100? A deposit is to hold the merchandise. Terms of the sale are something else. If he is a banker he understands that and your crabbing is what squelched the deal. If you get 4100 you still get what you agreed to sell the tractor for if you don't return his deposit. Good Luck and how are things in CA



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Bannered in boston

03-05-2007 11:06:18




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:14:29  
Would you now be willing to sell the tractor for 4100? A deposit is to hold the merchandise. Terms of the sale are something else. If he is a banker he understands that and your crabbing is what squelched the deal. If you get 4100 you still get what you agreed to sell the tractor for if you don't return his deposit. Good Luck and how are things in CA



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Dig It

03-05-2007 10:09:07




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 Re: Forfeit of deposit Yes or No ??? in reply to Sam F., 03-05-2007 10:05:36  
Definitely he lost his deposit. He backed out of the deal, not you. You lost business because of him.



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