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OT - Buying a farm

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Dave H (MI)

01-17-2007 12:52:07




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Looking for advice. After prolonged and very friendly negotiations, we have come to the decision to buy a local farm with between 70-80 acres and a small house and one tiny building.
This is an unusually large piece in this part of the state. The seller wants it to remain whole and I will honor his wishes. It is and will remain leased for the next two seasons after which we will be building a little nicer home and moving to it. I will gradually take over the farming end. The small house will remain on the property as a guest house. I have family who may need it one day in a pinch. We will formalize the agreement next week and I will have 60 days for final inspections, tests, etc. What sort of things would you recommend I look at? Well and septic inspections are required here. Survey is probably not going to happen due to cost. Any traps or pitfalls to watch out for? Been saving a lot of years for this and would like to keep the experience positive.

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Dave H (MI)

01-18-2007 09:24:37




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Wow! I knew you guys could provide a lot of good advice! I was taking so many notes I finally just copied the whole thing into a Word file. Thanks so much. I will keep you posted.

Dave



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davpal

01-17-2007 21:25:33




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Just make sure the farm is not registered in PA-116 which in Michigan stands for Major Pain In the AZZ! You will want to find that out real quick. You cannot believe the hoops you will have to jump through with people in Lansing to do this. You have to aquire the ownership of the PA-116 agreement and then hope it runs out very fast. You can be liable for back taxes that these people have gotten for being in the program. After going through this very thing a few years ago I would never ever sign up for Michigans PA-116 program, their wetlands program, or any CRP program through the federal govenment. They are all a big ripoff and a hassle. The people before us that owned the place liked to sign up for stuff. Some of those agreements last for 10-100 years. Find out if they were in it!

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Rick Kr

01-17-2007 18:51:40




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Dave,

I have land in Michigan, only 33 acres. Get a real estate lawyer. Just to protect yourself.

You have insurance on your truck. Get "insurance" on probably the largest purchase you will make in your lifetime.

I used a lawyer out of Grand Blanc, not cheap $200 or 250 an hour.

Especially on the mineral rights, this held up the purchase for close to 2 months get them transferred properly. After reading documents on mineral rights, you want them transferred to you with the property. Sand, gravel, etc are all considered minerals, not just gas/oil.

Rick

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JK-NY

01-17-2007 17:45:27




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Laws on real estate vary from state to state , but here are some thoughts - insist on title insurance ,review deeds for any easments , right of ways, restrictions etc . I would get it surveyed if possible unless you are familiar with the property. Perhaps the cost couild be split. If no survey have the current owner stake the corners and walk the boundaries with you. Try to find out if there were any other buildings there at one time (old cellars, wells, buried fuel tanks,etc may affect your future plans). Try to find out as much as possible from the current owner about your water supply and septic system,(location, age, depth of well etc) as well as the land (drain tile etc). Some states use lawyers for real estate transactions (like here in NY), some dont , but I'd reccomend being represented by a good lawyer unless you are very familiar with the area, properety and whole situation you are buying into.Good luck.

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DMont

01-17-2007 15:59:40




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
I"m sure you will enjoy when your purchase is complete, but until then, it can be no fun. Here are some things I learned: 1. Certainly draw up a contingency contract with the seller. Make sure to list everything you will need done to the property at the purchase. 2.Talk to the lending agency as they will know the value of land in the area. Bank presidents or officers may help here. I saved 50 thousand on 100 acres by this move. 3.Most lending agencies require surveys. Farm Credit in Ok required the survey. Adverse possesion was mentioned, Ok will not make an adjoining neighbor move fences, if they have been there for a long time. Their fences could be on your property 10 feet or more and your are buying that property. They also handled the closing. They will make sure everything is okay with deeds, and etc. as it protects them. An attorney can also perform this task, but he may be a friend of the seller and guess who he will represent behind your back. 4. If there are substantial things to be completed at the sale by the seller ask for 5 to 10 thousand to be held back to ensure that the task are performed. The seller will not object unless he intends to welch on something. 5. The lender should require a EPA inspection to protect you. Buried tanks that were used for fuel and propane are possible problems. Soil can be contaminated and be very expensive. Hope that I have been of help. Good luck Don

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Midwest redneck

01-17-2007 15:53:27




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Where in Michigan is it at.?



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raytasch-TN

01-17-2007 15:46:08




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Sounds somewhat like a property I recently sold in FL. A sizable chunk of acreage for the area, ag zoning with a pole barn and older house that had been remodeled several times. The buyer was buying the land, the house and barn value was secondary. The property was sold "as is" so as to minimize the BS that goes with a house inspection. Of course, there was the usual disclosure but the contract was approved by buyers attorney, so there was no question as to what we were transferring. A commercial appraisal substantiated the price.
I would mandate a survey or at least have line and corner stakes located. A neighbor's fence had encroched onto my property three feet in the middle of one long line and the neighbor agreed to move it. Meet the neighbors. 'Till everyone signs the paperwork all things are negotiable----- -unless the local government has its nose stuck where it does not belong.
Enjoy it,
ray

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NDScott in CA

01-17-2007 15:10:45




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Dave, one thing for sure is if you don't buy it you will never own it. In 2003 I bought a 800 acre farm in south west ND close to where I grew up. I have bought/fixedup/kept and sold several houses in the San Francisco area and am used to a thick stack on doccuments on each one. The farm was all different. The sales contract was one page. No title insurance was obtained, a local lawyer reviewed the deed and wrote a letter saying the sellers could sell it. I don't know what will happen if there is a problem after he is dead. I would not expect the disclosure stuff on the house one would expect on a in town deal. Around here, as far as getting the mineral rights, forget it. Make it to complicated the sellers will find a different buyer. Realitors can be very usefull but can also introduce all sorts of distrust proplems. Country lawyers can be wonderful. Perhaps John T could recomment one in your area. I question a survey, you will need that money for a 3pt tractor and bushhog. If you don't buy it you may be kicking yourself in a couple of years. good luck

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Paul Hurm

01-17-2007 15:10:08




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Just a quick thought I had but here in Ohio, the state univ, Ohio State, has agricultural extension offices in (I think) every county. If MI has the same, that may be a good place to go for some suggestions at least with reference to the ground related issues.



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Jerry/MT

01-17-2007 13:57:27




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
By "Finding and Buying Your Place in the Country" By Les Scher & Carol Scher. It will tell you all you need to know about what you are trying to do. You really needed to buy it BEFORE you started looking but I'm sure that it can help you even now. I would strongly recommend this to anyoneone looking for a place in the country ESPECIALLY those who never lived in the country.I bought the first edition many years ago ATER I bought my first place in the country and I was fortunate that I didn't get burned. There were some things in that purchase that could have turned out really bad (an importtant easment was not transfered properly.)
Good Luck to you.

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Jerry/MT

01-17-2007 13:56:42




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
By "Finding and Buying Your Place in the Country" By Les Scher & Carol Scher. It will tell you all you need to know about what you are trying to do. You really needed to buy it BEFORE you started looking but I'm sure that it can help you even now. I would strongly recommend this to anyoneone looking for a place in the country ESPECIALLY those who never lived in the country.I bought the first edition many years ago ATER I bought my first place in the country and I was fortunate that I didn't get burned. There were some things in that purchase that could have turned out really bad (an importtant easment was not transfered properly.)
Good Luck to you.

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John T Country Lawyer

01-17-2007 13:28:33




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Dave, here just south of you in Indiana and while this is alllll ll negotiable its typical to draw up a Purchase Agreement whereby you agree to purchase and the Seller agrees to sell for x dollars made SUBJECT TO certain important things such as the inspections you mentioned (septic) plus other things such as structural integrity and habitability of the home etc. That way youre protected if the house is say termite riddled or the roofs shot etc. Often the buyer bears the cost of such and if major problems are found the buyer can walk away or it can be written that the seller has the option to repair etc etc. I write these Purchase Agreements depending on if Im representign the Buyer or the Seller.

The next important thing is to have a judgment search performed as if the seller has any they attach to and are a lien on the real estate i.e. you want to buy it free n clear of any judgments or liens which a good title and judgment n lien search will find. Also, that the taxes are paid n current.

In the old days the seller had an abstract of title continued to date and your attorney could examine it and render a professional opinion of the quality of the title. Nowadays the seller is usually required to provide the buyer with an Owners Policy of Title Insurance showing good merchantible title free n cklear of judgment sn liens etc. Problem for a lay person is if you cant read n understand all the schedule A and B exemptions you may be stuck cuz if the title company underwriter sees anythign in doubt they simply exclude the same from coverage GET AN ATTORNEY TO HELP YOU

As far as surveys they are good to show what the deed or legal description indicates the boundaries to be BUTTTTT TTT you may or may not own to exact those boundaries (often NOT the case) due to the law of adverse possession etc.

The first starting point, therefore, is to have a good Purchase Agreement,,,,, , Vendors Affidavit if used locally,,,,, ,, Of course, you want a Warranty NOT a Quitclaim Deed,,,,, then do the title n judgment n lien search abstract type thing and/or title insurance (which seller should furnish and then have an attorney examine it) then at least have a surveyor give you some advice regardless if he surveys it or not.

BOTTOM LINE this is too big a decision n too much money NOT to get advice from an attorney and a surveyor PERIODDDDD DDD

John T Country Lawyer in Indiana

This is another question that cant be answered in a paragraph here, tooooo ooooo complicated n tooooo o many risks n unknowns.....

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jhill52

01-17-2007 13:24:34




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Make sure you get the mineral rights and check for any right of ways. Make sure the seller provides title insurance.



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RonND

01-17-2007 13:17:21




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Just went thru a home buy-had a home inspector check it over before the buy. In hind sight after having the furnace condemned, etc. I would recommend, as did Hay, the plumber and electrician doing the inspecting.
They are the experts and can also advise on future issues-plumber the sewer; electrician buring the outside overhead lines and other connection issues.



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Tim B from MA

01-17-2007 13:16:11




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
What kind of farming has been done there?

To emphasis one of Glennster's comments, depending upon the environmental regulations in Michigan, I'd be somewhat concerned about improper use and/or spillage of pesticides; that could turn into a very costly issue in the future.

If you don't ever plan to sub-divide (good for you and Michigan) it is less likely to come up, but it may come up when it comes time for you or your heirs to sell.

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hay

01-17-2007 13:05:36




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
a survey should be an absolute must. that way the property lines are properly defined and no question about it. any structures should have a termite inspection also. get a good plumber to check over the plumbing and a electrician to check over the wiring. those items can cost big $ to have fixed.



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glennster

01-17-2007 13:05:16




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
best advice i would give is have an attorney handle the transaction for you. i am not familiar with your state laws, but, i would definately have a survey and a title search done so there are no hidden leins or encumberances on the property. you can still keep the transaction friendly, but it is a business transaction and the interests of both the seller and buyer need to be protected. find an attorney that specializes in real estate, especially farm sales. check with a local realator to see who the good attorneys are. if the fields are tiled, get a copy of the tile maps, also see if you can get records of any fertilizer applications, lime ect for the past 5 years. generally, an attorney will run around 500 or so if things go well,survey a couple grand. if you try and cut corners, it will come back and bite you in the behind.

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Janicholson

01-17-2007 12:56:40




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 Re: OT - Buying a farm in reply to Dave H (MI), 01-17-2007 12:52:07  
Get to know the neighbors as you move in, they make the best resource there is (especially if you also give to them). Go for it. JimN



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