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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Heres one for you smart guys

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old

01-13-2007 15:55:26




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If you could figure out how to store the cold air we have this time of year and then let it out in the summer and do the same the other way around you could heat and cool homes for little or nothing plus make a few million bucks to boot. Any body have any good ideas on how to to it???
Guess I'm bored today to much ice to go out and do any thing

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Kent in KC

01-16-2007 06:24:50




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 Earth Cooling Tubes in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
In my new home I'm trenching four 4" PVC tubes 10' under, for 250 feet. I will draw air through them and use the 60 degree fresh air year round. My house is on a hill so the outboard ends are sloped slightly so condensation will run out rather than cause a mold farm, although I could occasionally flush them with bleach to be sure. The unit in the house is a standard furnace blower and filter with ducts throughout the house. On the hottest days I'll still need the A/C but I'm hoping it takes care of the tweener months. I'll let y'all know how it works out. P.S.: I hear Daniel Boone did something similar, a trench between his cabin and barn, which worked quite well.

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Sam#3

01-14-2007 07:14:25




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
Find the guys who have been 'saving daylight' for all the past years. They've had a good racket going until the containers they're storing under the icecaps started to leak.



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RAB

01-14-2007 01:03:38




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
Old, You wrote "how to store the cold air". There is no such thing as "cold energy". Cold is just a lower energy level. You make things hot by adding energy and they are colder when you take the energy away. So store the energy is the requirement. The ground source heat pumps will still cost you to operate, but you may get as much as a fourfold gain in energy transfer compared with what you are using to run the system.
Just remember, if you take out all the energy from something (excepting mass enegy, of course) it will have a temperature of zero Kelvin or -273 degrees Celsius. I will leave you to convert to that funny temperature scale you use in the US.
Regards, RAB

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Kestrel in CT

01-13-2007 17:45:37




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
third party image

No problem. Just go out and buy a new $500,000 drilling rig like this one and offer geothermal system ground loops.

This shiny new Peterbuilt rig just pulled into my yard a few hours ago. He'll be poking a couple of 350' holes in the ground Monday to tap into mother earth's 50 degree womb.

From there my new heat pump should keep me warm in winter, cool in summer (and poor all year from the hefty installation cost !) Hey, beats giving it to the Arabs.

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Joe in MN

01-14-2007 10:16:32




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to Kestrel in CT , 01-13-2007 17:45:37  
That Guy must Charge quite a Chunk to afford some thing like that !!!!!



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Walt Davies

01-14-2007 09:11:28




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to Kestrel in CT , 01-13-2007 17:45:37  
third party image

I love red trucks too, here's mine.
Walt



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IaGary

01-13-2007 20:25:50




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to Kestrel in CT , 01-13-2007 17:45:37  
Got it my home and its great.

But I buried the lines in a loop 7 foot under ground in a trench.

Same temp as a 350 ft.

Just takes more space for the 1600 ft of line.

But cheaper than drilling two holes.

Gary



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Kestrel in CT

01-14-2007 06:14:54




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to IaGary, 01-13-2007 20:25:50  
Yep..sounds like your horizontal system is the way to go. 1,600 feet ? If I had more level property around the house I would have done that and saved a ton. Grass seed is alot cheaper than drilling holes. But here in New England we have all these annoying bumps so I'm forced to go straight down. I imagine your system is easier to repair breaks if they occur also.



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IaGary

01-14-2007 19:41:20




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to Kestrel in CT , 01-14-2007 06:14:54  
That 1600 feet of plastic pipe is in a pit 100' by 20' wide and about 100'from the house.



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Allan In NE

01-13-2007 16:18:13




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
Already being done. It's called a ground source heat pump. :>)

Allan



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jdemaris

01-13-2007 16:14:39




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 How about the old winter ice harvest? in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
Used to be done every winter (well, sort of). The winter ice harvest. They still do it every year at the museum where my wife works. Score the ice on the pond, cut it, store it in the ice house and use that "winter cold" all summer long. Even on a smaller scale, in the winter the old timers in the Adirondacks would hike to their remote deep-woods fishing spots and bury ice underground, insulated with dry leaves, hemlock boughs, etc. Then when summer came, they go back in to make big catches of fish and use the ice that was saved to preserve it. Now - going the other way? I've got a guy near me that tried. He built a new house according to plans in Popular Science. It uses summer sun to warm water tanks that are stored undergound and insulated. Then, when winter comes, you circulate that water all winter to heat the house.
Didn't work. Either Popular Science lies, or we just don't have enough sun here in the Northeast.

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RAB

01-14-2007 00:50:03




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 Re: How about the old winter ice harvest? in reply to jdemaris, 01-13-2007 16:14:39  
More likely not enough water or insulation. Just work out your winter heat needs and check the volume of water needed!!Regards, RAB



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george md

01-13-2007 17:55:21




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 Re: How about the old winter ice harvest? in reply to jdemaris, 01-13-2007 16:14:39  
jd ,

My father did the ice harvest near boonton

nj for many years all the way to the last one

in the late 40's. I think I have 8mm film of

the last one .They put up several thousand tons

in 10 days , was quite the operation .

george



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Janicholson

01-13-2007 16:40:25




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 Re: How about the old winter ice harvest? in reply to jdemaris, 01-13-2007 16:14:39  
A person would need way more water than economic to store, and a way to heat it to about 200 degrees. Work yes, realistic no. I pumped water through a heat exchanger out of an abandoned water well in Ohio. My heat pump was using about 20% of its normal air to air runtime. I was renting at the time and disassembled it when I moved. It was not pretty. JimN



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jdemaris

01-13-2007 17:23:49




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 Re: How about the old winter ice harvest? in reply to Janicholson, 01-13-2007 16:40:25  
The system my nieghbor built had thousands of gallons of water buried underground in tanks insulated with sand. It was heated all summer with solar collectors on the roof. It worked, but not well. We have winters that get to 30 below F, and not an awful lot of sun in the summer. His first winter, on cold days he could not get the house above 45 degrees F. He wound up putting an oil-burner in and eventually gave up on the system. Seems to be, he would have been no better - or worse off - by installing geo-thermal - which also does not work very well around here.

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Gerald J.

01-13-2007 16:08:38




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to old, 01-13-2007 15:55:26  
Build an ice house. Cut ice from the pond and store it. They did lots of that before electricity came to the northland. Still works. Works better with slave labor. Insulation today should work better than sawdust at holding the ice.

The county courthouse airconditioner freezes an undeground tank using off peak rates and then cools with the ice during the day, even in the summer time. Saves considerable electric cost, but it cost a lot to install and maintain.

Gerald J.

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Eric SEI

01-13-2007 19:06:03




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 Re: Heres one for you smart guys in reply to Gerald J., 01-13-2007 16:08:38  
Anthem BC&BS in Cincinnati uses the ice system also. One of the newer buidings in Indianapolis pumps water from a well, uses it for geothermal, and then dumps the water in the water company canal. And I read about a school in Minnesota that stores snow from the parking lot in an insulated dome and uses the runoff to run the airconditioners in the summer.



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