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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Factory Prototype Questions ....

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Way Up Here

01-03-2007 15:01:49




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I am assuming that back from the 20's up into the 60's that tractor factories scratch-built a number of prototype tractors before things went into production for any particular model, especially brand new models and designs. Without the aids of computers and design programs, they must have hand-built these units to make sure everything fit and worked properly, or at least as good as could have been expected. Am I correct in this?

And secondly, I wonder what happened to all of those prototypes that were built. Were they stored away or sold or what? Anyone ever see one of these for a common model of tractor?

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allan went

01-03-2007 20:30:37




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
Check with the larson tractor musuem at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. They tested all tractors and they have a wealth of information



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Dean Barker

01-03-2007 19:32:34




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
Up until the late 80's, most all the Oliver and White experimental tractors were scrapped so they would not have to be supported in the field by the service and parts departments. Then the company policy changed and experimental tractors were sold. I bought an experimental White 120 with 319 hours that had been used as a lab tractor. A White 140 lab tractor was also sold as was most of the other models. The last I knew, there were 4 White 4-325 experimental tractors that were built and sold. This model never went into production. I've since retired and I don't know what AGCO's policy is on experimental tractors. When I get done using my 120, it is going to be donated to the Floyd County Historical Society to put in their museum in Charles City, Iowa

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j meyer

01-03-2007 21:29:14




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Dean Barker, 01-03-2007 19:32:34  
What exactly is different on this 120 then production? If you want to sell it over donating, I could use a baler tractor to go with our 145:) What White farm equipment company made that tractor at that time? that had to be right around the 1986 bankrupcy. I just found out a couple weeks ago our 145 would have been made in Independence, instead of Coldwater.....talk about resetting production for one year!

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Dean Barker

01-04-2007 08:11:40




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to j meyer, 01-03-2007 21:29:14  
There is not whole lot of difference between my experimental 120 and the production models. The cab has a red interior, it has 3 7/8 dia axles, the O/U has electric controls like the American 60 and 80, and the engine side panels are slightly different. We made a slight change in the transmission input shaft, so my input shaft is different and the final drive housing is different. I do have a spare input shaft, but I don't think the first one will ever wear out. It also has the White 100 transmission gears. That is about all I can think of at this time about what is different. I plan on using this tractor until I retire from farming. It currently has around 1600 hours on it. The engine oil is changed at least every 100 hours with Mobil 1300 15W-40. I put 18.4-42 Firestone tires with step up rims a couple of years ago. It is equipped with 5 sets of rear weights and a full rack of front weights. I mainly use it for fall tillage, so I keep it weighted to about 17,000 lbs. I also use it for blowing snow. Your 145 is a nice tractor also.

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Dean Barker

01-04-2007 08:32:59




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Dean Barker, 01-04-2007 08:11:40  
I see I didn't answer all of your questions, j meyer. This tractor was built in Charles City, Iowa at the Oliver plant. It was built by the guys in experimental. It was started in early 1985 with the transaxle being built. We were laid off in March of 1985 until Jan 1986. As it had the wrong transmission, another 120 was built with the right transmission and sent to our Phoenix test facility for testing. My 120 was then completed and used for a lab tractor which is why it had so few hours. A guy that did custom corn shelling with a JD sheller used it for awhile, one of the other engineers used it on his farm for some time, and then it came back to the plant and used in experimental. It was put up for sale, and I bought it. Over a year later, we found out that Cummings still owned the engines in both my 120 and the 140 that was sold. I never did find out how that was settled, but I assume that White had to pay for them. These two B series engines were some of the first that Cummings had assembled. Mine used a quart of oil every 10 to 70 hours, depending what weight of oil I used, until it had about 1200 hours. Then it quit using oil; I'm assuming that it finally got broke in. It seems to be easy on fuel; it will do the same work as my John Deere 4320 on about 2 gallons less an hour.

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Sam in Mi

01-03-2007 19:25:26




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
There have been a few Internationals seen lately that were TX models that were built in advance of the 88 series tractors. One is in Missouri that was a 5088 prototype that had been originally painted like an 86 series tractor. A 5488 prototype was recently found on a dealer lot in Michigan. There was also a 3688 for sale last year that had features on it that were going to be on the next series of IH if they had survived.

The Kellers in Wisconsin paid a ton of money for a one of a kind JD a few years ago and have it restored in their collection.

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R. John Johnson

01-03-2007 17:45:17




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
Back in the old days design calculations were done with slide rules and layouts done on drafting boards to see how things would fit together.

If the prototype was being built to test a concept, it may have corners cut to build it.

If the prototype was being built with the intention of going into full production, then individual piece part drawings would be sent to the fabrication shop or vendors. These parts may be built on a limited basis, but with the intention that this would be the same as a full production part. One of the reasons for building prototypes is to figure out how it can be economically built in you production facility. Any problems identified can be ironed out before full production. After production intent prototypes are built, then they usually go to testing to ensure they will perform and not have any premature failures.

Any company that tries to build a production intent prototype by cobbling it together will eventually wind up in a world of hurt.

John

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R. John Johnson

01-03-2007 18:01:11




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to R. John Johnson, 01-03-2007 17:45:17  
Thought I might add about what happened to prototypes. Can't say for certain on the older stuff, but today the rationale is that if it gets in the field, you must support it. Since it is not cost effective to have manuals and parts for just a hand full of machines, many were scrapped or re-used for concept testing.

Heard Ford used to push their tractors over the big loading dock when they were done. They were then sold for scrap. I read an article in Farm Show about a "one piece at at time" JD 4840. Two guys who worked at Deere bought prototype and factory reject parts and put together a tractor that was later sold as a 4840. The thing was a lemon and the guy stuck with it was mad at Deere, even if it wasn't their machine. Incidents like that make companies leary of non production iron out in the field.

John

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Sloroll

01-03-2007 16:32:32




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
I have one for a Friday tractor and I believe a Huber tractor.



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Leroy

01-03-2007 16:30:20




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
John Deere kept them as long as they were prototypes, some were taken back and rebuilt and rebaged as the model they later became and sold as used tractors



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Midwest redneck

01-03-2007 15:42:30




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
I had heard (dont hold me to this) that the prototypes made by the tractor companies were given (or sold for cheap) to farmers to test them in the fields. I know that IH had many of their tractors started with #501 and the the first 500 were test tractors.



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Tim in NB

01-03-2007 15:21:20




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
Cockshutt 580 survived!



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Way Up Here

01-03-2007 15:34:35




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Tim in NB, 01-03-2007 15:21:20  
Are you saying that there was a 580 Cockshutt? Tell us more? How many were built? Did it ever go into production line production? Interesting.



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Tim in NB

01-03-2007 15:47:16




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:34:35  
From what I have read there were three experimentals kicking around when white took over cockshutt. Some how only the hand built 580 survived. It has a 354 perkins engine that is supposed to be rated at 100 hp. I think its home is in Ohio now.



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Leroy

01-03-2007 16:26:25




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Tim in NB, 01-03-2007 15:47:16  
When I saw it in 96 it was in New Jersey and have not heard that the owner had sold it, At that time he brought 3 semi loads of Cockshutts to western Ohio for the first international Cockshutt show that has been alternating between different locations in the USA and Canada for several years till it came back to Wapakoneta, Ohio for the 10th year aniversery show in 2006. It did not make it back to this past years show.

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Bob N.Y.

01-03-2007 15:45:58




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:34:35  
The book I have says three 580s were in the works when Cockshutt was bought out. One was complete. The employees were ordered to "Take the torches to the 580s". The two incomplete prototypes were scrapped. The complete one was spirited away and hidden for decades. I will let someone else take the story from here.



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MJ in the UK

01-04-2007 04:09:39




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Bob N.Y., 01-03-2007 15:45:58  
A Cockshutt 580 worked for many years on a farm in Lincolnshire here in the UK. The story is that the farmer did testing work for Perkins engines and he obtained the tractor because of this. I am afraid i do not know were the tractor is now. MJ



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Dave from MN

01-04-2007 07:27:21




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to MJ in the UK, 01-04-2007 04:09:39  
I beleive I saw on either "classis tractors" or "machinery of the past", this here 580 cocksutt. I do recall them saying it was the ONLY one in existance. Nice looking ,sounding tractor. It was just aired this past fall/summer so a guy should be able to order a dvd/video tape of the program.



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Nebraska Cowman

01-03-2007 15:09:08




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 Re: Factory Prototype Questions .... in reply to Way Up Here, 01-03-2007 15:01:49  
I'd guess most of them were scrapped or otherwise desrtoyed. I have heard stories of tractors being run 24/7 until they failed just to see what would wear out and break first.



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