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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump

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JoeBob/IN

12-31-2006 11:32:17




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Ok, since it has been raining rather than snowing I have had too much time to think! It hit me all of the sudden, I burn wood in an outdoor boiler (from fence rows we clean and tops of logged trees, not cutting down good trees) to save money and dependence on Natural Gas. So why not use solar energy to run the pump rather than 115V? Thought I could stick a 12V battery in the back where there is room (I have a Heatmor) just below the pump and hook one of those solar chargers to keep the battery full. Than use an inverter to go from 12V to 115V. Now the serious questions are;

1st- Will a single charged battery run one pump?
2nd- If so for how long when the sun goes away?
3rd- How could I rig it so that if the battery couldn't run the pump it would automatically switch to the 115V line?
4th- Am I crazy or what?

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JoeBob/IN

01-01-2007 08:18:19




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 Jeeze fellas- sure can kill a man's idea in reply to JoeBob/IN, 12-31-2006 11:32:17  
Nah, just kiddin. This is why I asked here. It was just an idea and ya'll had some good info. Seems as though it wouldn't be cost effective to make a switch.



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wayne from wi

12-31-2006 14:39:45




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to JoeBob/IN, 12-31-2006 11:32:17  

Gotta wonder if a wind generator might be appropriate, depending on your location.



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jdemaris

12-31-2006 12:17:38




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to JoeBob/IN, 12-31-2006 11:32:17  
There are many ways to do it. I run the electric hot-air blower on my wood-furnace with solar - and it draws a lot more current than a water-circulator does. When it's gets good and cold outside, my blower draws 3 amps at 120V for 15-20 hours a day. You need to figure what the most current use in one day is for your setup. You then have to figure how much electricity - producing sun is available on an average winter day. In my area - four hours is used as an average - but we actually get less. If you get four hours - you then have to have enough solar-panel wattage to produce the power you need in that four hours - actually about 20% more. That 20% takes into account inverter loss, battery storage loss, etc. You also have to size your battery bank to be capable of running with no sun for X amount of time. Since you have grid backup - seems 20 hours of battery storage is a good goal. If, for example, your circulator draws 1 amp at 120 VAC, and runs 6 hours a day - it then uses 720 watt-hours. Add 20% to that for loss, i.e. you have 864 watt-hours. You need approx. a minimum of 200 watts in solar panels. A good buy on solar panels comes to around 4.50 per watt - so two 100 watt panels will cost you around $900 if you buy right. And, the Federal government will give you a tax credit for part of it. For batteries - to have 844 watt-hours of storage - take a battery and mulitply its AH rating times its voltage. For example, a Trojan golf-cart deep-cycle battery is 6 volts and 225 AH - i.e. 1350 watt-hours. You need 12 volts for an inverter, therefore you hook two of the Trojan 6 volt batteries in series - and get 12 volts but the watt-hour storage stays the same. Series connections do not change watt-hours - only parallel connections do. These are just examples. I don't know how much reserve you want, how much sun you get, etc. In answer to an automatic system - there are inverters made just for that purpose. When the batteries reach a state of low-charge, the inverter automatically switches over to grid-power - or an automatic-starting fuel-driven generator if you want. Cheapest automatic inverter I know of on the market is a Trace/Xantrex DR series. It is cheaper than most because it's a modified-wave inverter - and today - any house hooked on solar to feed back to the grid (grid-tie) requires a full-wave inverter - and they are much more expensive. Just priced an inverter for my house if I want to go to grid-tie and it's list price is $5500. You can buy a Trace DR 2000 watt inverter - with a 12 volt input and 120 VAC - with built in battery charger, automatic changeover to grid, etc. - for around $400-$600 but you have to shop around. If you don't want automatic changeover, you can buy all kinds of $100 inverters that will do the job of voltage-conversion - but the changeover will be up to you.

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RP2

12-31-2006 13:11:11




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to jdemaris, 12-31-2006 12:17:38  
"For example, a Trojan golf-cart deep-cycle battery is 6 volts and 225 AH - i.e. 1350 watt-hours. You need 12 volts for an inverter, therefore you hook two of the Trojan 6 volt batteries in series - and get 12 volts but the watt-hour storage stays the same. Series connections do not change watt-hours - only parallel connections do."

You're thinking of amp-hours. 2 1350watthour batteries in series will provide 2700watt hours (225 amps times 12 volts).

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jdemaris

12-31-2006 14:48:15




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to RP2, 12-31-2006 13:11:11  
Yes - correct. This stuff makes my head hurt unless I'm really in the mood to study it - and make use of the knowledge while its fresh in my mind. If I'm thinking about fixing tractors, the electrical stuff takes a back seat in some dark corner of my brain. Watt-hours = AH X Volts. So of course, two Trojans in series does not increase AH but does double the voltage. Also, I wasn't suggesting he needed anything that size - I have no idea what he has in mind or wants. When designing an off-grid household system - keeping batteries from getting overly discharged is an imporpant factor - so proper sizing is very important. In his situation, since he has grid-power - he could size his system very small. Problem is though, the equipment is expensive regardless. I haven't seen a system yet that will ever pay for itself - not even when installed along with a 60% cash incentive package from the State. With a large solar-system, the benefit of independence is usually the payoff. But, to qualify for a State cash incentive - Grid-tie to the power-company is just about always a requirement. And, most hook-ups done with grid-tie cannot be used - at all - when the power is down. Makes no sense to me and offers little to no "independence." I just got done building a grid-tie system with battery-backup and the ability to function when the grid is down. It costs a lot of extra money and I'm not sure it's worth it. But, I consider it a lifetime investment - and if I ever move, all the solar equipment is coming with me.

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buickanddeere

12-31-2006 19:53:15




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to jdemaris, 12-31-2006 14:48:15  
It's a good idea to size that batteries large enough they do not suffer deep cycling. Taking more than 20-30% of an battery's capacity shortens even a deep cycle cell's life. There are some slow speed six bladed PM wind turbines on ebay.Price is right and they also work in the dark.



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55 50

12-31-2006 11:57:36




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to JoeBob/IN, 12-31-2006 11:32:17  
How big is your boiler pump? I would guess that it doesn"t use much AC power and that with all the extra parts you are thinking of using, that the money spent on those would buy you a BIG amount of AC power so I don"t see it being very cost effective, even though you CAN do what you are thinking about. Another thought. Can you buy a DC motor for your boiler? That would save you a bunch of other stuff as you could go direct from the solar unit right to your motor assuming you buy the correct solar unit. Have your battery in parallel as a supply unit if the sun isn"t shining. Seems there will be several options less costly and cumbersome than your initial plan.

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Jon Hagen

12-31-2006 12:19:25




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 Re: 12v DC to 115v AC for boiler pump in reply to 55 50, 12-31-2006 11:57:36  
For emergency power to keep the heat on, you might power your pump with a battery and inverter. For everyday use it would take a pretty spendy solar system to generate that much power. Say your pump takes 2 amps at 120 volts, to make that from 12V would mean you need to generate over 22 amps at 12V, as inverters are never much more than 90% efficient.

Considering that you get not more than 1/2 of a 24 hour day with enough light to make the solar charger work, you would need a 500 watt solar panel and a big battery bank to make it work. I have not priced that stuff lately,but I suspect the cost would be several thousand $$.

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