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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jacknife??

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baffling questi

10-13-2006 14:41:16




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Why does a skidding tractor trailer jacknife? Does the trailer some how speed up? Is rolling resistance lower with a skidding tire? Thought hot tires create traction hence the burnout on the dragstrip before a drag race. A skidding tire makes heat so it should have more rolling resistance not less right??




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MarkB_MI

10-14-2006 04:42:27




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to baffling question, 10-13-2006 14:41:16  
Not being a truck driver, I haven't thought much about the dynamics of a jacknife. But jmixigo got it right that a sliding tire has no traction in any direction.

The thing to understand is that the friction between two surfaces is different depending on whether the surfaces are sliding or stationary. The static (stationary) coefficient of friction is usually much greater than the dynamic (sliding) coefficient. For example, if you are trying to push a heavy box across the floor, you will find that it takes much more force to get it moving than it does to keep it moving. When you push on the box, you must first overcome the static coefficient of friction; once it starts to move, the friction drops significantly.

This explains why you loose the ability to steer a car when you lock up the front brakes: although the tires are sliding, they loose traction in all directions, not just the direction in which they're sliding. It also explains why a vehicle with a limited slip differential has a much worse tendency to fishtail than one without limited slip: the non-spinning tire on the car without limited slip keeps the vehicle from sliding sideways.

OK, getting back to the jacknife, here's what I think happens: On a semi, the tires most likely to loose traction are those on the driving axles. That's because they are subject to torque any time the clutch is engaged and the transmission is in gear. (You have to step on the brakes to get the wheels on the other axles to break traction.) Once the driving axles lose traction, the rear of the tractor will tend to slide sideways, since there is no longer any lateral resistance. When the rear of the tractor slips, it causes the trailer to rotate out of alignment with the rig's direction of travel. Once the trailer is a few degrees out of alignment, the entire rig becomes unstable: As long as the trailer tires have traction, the trailer will tend to force the driving axles to slide, causing the trailer to rotate further and pick up rotational inertia. At a certain point, the trailer tires will break traction, and the trailer's rotational inertia will cause it to "pass" the tractor.

A similar condition can occur on a motorcycle. I took a motorcycle safety class a while back, and one thing they stressed is that if you ever lock up the rear brake, you must keep it locked up until the bike comes to a full stop. Why? Because once the rear tire breaks traction, it will tend to slide out of alignment with the cycle's direction of travel. If you release the rear brake, the tire will instantly "grab" and try to turn the bike in the direction the tire is pointing. The result is inevitably a "high side" crash, where the driver is on the forward side of the sliding motorcycle. (This is on dry pavement, on dirt it's no big deal to lock up the rear brake and release it, since the tires have much less traction.)

Getting back to your point about drag racers doing burnouts: The power-to-weight ratio of a dragster is so great that wheel spin is inevitable. What they are doing is to modify the properties of the tires by heating them up, basically changing the tire from hard rubber to something like rubber cement. Even in this heated state, the static coefficient of friction is higher than the dynamic coeffficient, but the dynamic coefficient of the hot, sticky tire is much greater than it is for a cold tire. All of this has litle relevance to the jacknifed semi.

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CLW

10-13-2006 18:41:08




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to baffling question, 10-13-2006 14:41:16  
Tires locked up on one axel will pass rolling tires, swap ends. You can prove this on your kitchen floor. Take a toy car and give it a shove across the floor. It goes straight. Now tape or lock the rear wheels in some manner and push it again. The back end will spin around and the car will go backward across the floor. Just another thing my 7 year old grandson taught me.



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jmixigo

10-13-2006 17:23:36




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to baffling question, 10-13-2006 14:41:16  
A sliding tire has lost all traction. A rolling tire ,even when force is applied has tractive force to resist. When the tires lock up they have lost not only most of their resistance to forward motion, but resistance to sliding in any direction. The towing unit, in most instances, has not lost traction to as great a degree as the unit being towed. The situation is exacerbated by the length to weight and length to length ratios of the truck and trailer.
Added to the equation is the fact that the RELATIVE weight of the tractor truck unit changes very little whether loaded or empty while the RELATIVE weight of the trailer changes greatly.
Most old truckers will tell you that a "medium" load, where the weight of the trailer roughly matches that of the tractor, stops MUCH better under any condition than an empty trailer.
A drag car enters the bleach box with COLD tires and does a burn out to heat the tires to their operating temprature (whether the driver actually knows that or not). They then perform as designed. The truck has all ready traveled miles getting to the scene of the accident so his tires are done warmed up. Sliding around on pavement is just gonna over heat the tire and make it act "greasey".
All of the above was taught me by folks that were supposed to be smart. What I learned on my own is that a tractor trailer jack knife happens damned quick. And seeing yore own trailer just outside the driver's side window is right spooky. I only did it once an strangely enough on a Friday the 13 th. Sorry bout the length of all this.

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Kent in NB

10-13-2006 17:30:32




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to jmixigo , 10-13-2006 17:23:36  
Been through that situation myself. It really does happen fast, and is not pretty. Glad you survived.



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jmixigo

10-13-2006 17:48:32




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to Kent in NB, 10-13-2006 17:30:32  
I was pulling an empty gasoline tanker, an no one got hurt. Bent up the truck some an tapped a guard rail but missed all the cars.
My butt drawed up so tight an so quick I figgered that my drawers would have to be removed surgically, but even that worked out.
One of my lucky days.



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Ryan - WI

10-13-2006 15:00:14




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to baffling question, 10-13-2006 14:41:16  
I would guess it has to do with the amount of rubber on the road and the leverage with the weight. With more tires on the tractor it is reasonable to assume that the tractor would stop quicker than the trailer. This also makes sense considering most of the braking power of a vehicle comes from the front (In a car it is 70/30 but I do not know for sure in a semi) If the back wants to go faster and the tractor and trailer are not in a perfect line the trailer is going to try to push the tractor to the side. Take a hinge that is perfectly straight and if you apply a straight force it doesn't move, however if there is any angle whatsoever the hinge snaps shut quickly. Same as a tractor trailer I would guess.

No one ever explained this to me and this is only my best guess. But in my mind it makes sense.

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nballen

10-13-2006 16:59:02




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 Re: O/T why does a skidding tractor trailer jackni in reply to Ryan - WI, 10-13-2006 15:00:14  
b.q.

Actually, a skidding tire has *zero* "rolling resistance".


Ryan,

I think you mean that "the front wants to stop faster, the back wants to keep going." (Yeah, I'm probably playing word games, but it makes things easier to understand, if we say exactly what we mean.)



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