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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT Deisel vs heating oil $

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MN Bob

08-31-2006 06:16:34




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Just trying to get this straight, (in my head at least), Here in my area of MN most people have left heating oil and gone to other fuel. The supplier I get farm deisel from agrees he sells less than 50% of 10 years back. So why is it everyone says heating oil drives the cost of deisel? Just dont get it! And this never happened in the past that we had deisel so much higher than gas. Does it cost more than gas to produce all of a sudden?? Looking for answers. Bob

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coflyboy

08-31-2006 20:11:19




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
I'm not a very smart man but I've learned a few things that seem to work.

All pricing is driven by supply/demand. It is always true that the buyer determines the pricing, never the seller. The soccer moms in the bimbo boxes can drive less by combining trips and eliminating unneccessary driving.

People driving to work can carpool and use public transportation to save gas.

Truckers/Farmers have none of these options. They must drive to survive. They use the lion's share of diesel. No matter the price, they must stay on the road/in the fields.

Therefore the pressure on diesel prices increases even if the usage of gas lessens.

The only effective way that I have found to lower prices is to deal with the supplier with the lowest prices. It takes time and effort to do this as it often involves research and jeopardizing long term relationships and friendships, but it always works.

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Bob M

08-31-2006 12:17:38




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 Re: OT Diesel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
With the exception of taxes, the cost of production has little bearing on the retail cost of fuel. Pricing rather is simple market economics at work. As long as people continue to buy gas/diesel/heating at today's levels, retail oil prices are gonna hold or continue to rise. There is simply no incentive for OPEC, Big Oil, etc. to do otherwise.

Only if worldwide demand for petroleum-based fuels were to drop (or possibly if massive new domestic supplies discovered and increased refining capacity built) can we ever expect to see prices start to decline.

---

Want a non-petroleum example? Look at bottled water:

The product falls free from the sky! Or where I live it can be purchased for something like 80 cents a thousand gallons from the municipal water supply. But people eagerly drop $1.25 into vending machines for 16 OUNCE BOTTLES of the stuff!

As long as people continue to buy it bottled water at this price level, it’s price is gonna hold. Diesel, heating oil and gasoline prices behave no differently.

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Jim Johnson

08-31-2006 09:25:23




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
Well the reason diesel is higher is because of TAXES. When they can tax an out of state, over the road, truck taxes that goes for schools and other purposes, not for fixing the roads, it's an easy sell on election day. Never have understood why that isn't TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.



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colekicker

08-31-2006 08:24:07




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
Conspiracy. Thats what it is GM is pushing flex fuel. Ford pushing hybrids. VW Jetta TDI was getting 45 mpg with the stick tranny. It gets better mileage than most hybrids. Won't meet 2007 emissions though. I say it is a conspiracy to get the more effecient cars off the road. When the gas pickups get 16 mpg and the diesel gets 20, they have to do something. I think this has to be major price gouging.
If the government really saw what was going on they would pressure the oil companies to lower diesel fuel costs. This would lower the "fuel surecharges" that some freight companies give. Practically everything we have in our homes got there through diesel power. It was either hauled or harvested at some point with diesel power. This would be a much more effective help to the average farmer. Lowering his input costs would really help his bottom line.
Am I completely off base? Would govt. influence in lowering diesel fuel prices help the entire nation? Are the car companies in the same bed with the oil companies to produce vehicles that are not as fuel efficient? Are the new emissions laws necessary when the lower tier engines can still be produced in the US and sold overseas?

Sorry for the long post/rant.

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cannonball

09-01-2006 03:43:26




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to colekicker, 08-31-2006 08:24:07  
Just a question..why would the goverment want a car or truck to get better mileage, they love the amount of fuel used here.. if they got better mileage they would have to raise taxes or tax something else....ever wonder lol have nice day MAY GOD BLESS USA



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john in la

08-31-2006 07:26:25




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
You have to consider that fuel is made one week and used the next. Yes they have many big tanks but nothing on the order of what you think in storage.
So if a cold snap is forecast or now this time of year people are filling home storage tanks it depletes supply. The NE still uses a lot of diesel for heating.
One of the big reasons for diesel price jump is pickups. Diesel may cost less to refine as it is one of the first things skimmed off you still only get XX amount of diesel from a gallon of oil. In other words if everyone used diesel for everything; and I mean everything the price of propane and gas would fall sharply because of over supply. It is the balance of propane; gas; and diesel use that keeps the price uniform.

We did have a waiver to use no tax fuel after the storm but that is history. It did not save anything because we still had to pay the tax. We just could not get enough road diesel in the tanks fast enough. With several refineries down the supply was short and the lines of trucks was long. To help out we got a wavier. This allowed us to load faster because we could load in the off road lane and reduced run outs at the loading racks. Now that all the refineries are back up and running it is not needed any more.

We were even given preference in traffic lines. Any gas tanker could come to a road block and run the shoulder like a police car and was allowed to cut in ahead of everyone.

And please tell me you do not believe every thing you hear on TV about New Orleans????? ?????

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MN Bob

08-31-2006 08:41:28




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to john in la, 08-31-2006 07:26:25  
John in LA; No, I dont believe all the news on TV, Radio or even word of mouth (rumors). I was in Biloxi twice (during Hazel), and got to New Orleans a few times. Dont want to live there, just as most of you would not want to live here. I am adjusted to the 4 seasons, including some 30 to 40 below some winters. Seems like our winters are warmer than they used to be though. Good luck on the re-building of your area. Bob

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paul

08-31-2006 07:05:13




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
New England uses a lot of heating oil. When ever they have a cold snap fuel $$$ goes way up. When they have a mild winter, price stays steady. been that way for years. If cold is heading to NE, top off the tank!

Until last year, #2 heating & #2 fuel were the same thing here from the coop. Now the fuel is 2% bean oil, heating oil was still all diesel. They got to have 2 tanks of stuff, seperate compartments, etc.

As a farmer I'm all for the biodesel, was surprised we didn't get the 2% for the furnace as well, keep it all the same.

--->Paul

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Matt from CT

08-31-2006 09:48:49




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to paul, 08-31-2006 07:05:13  
Maybe to help buffer the impact of ULSD fuels?

Put the "traditional" No.2 into the heating tanks till everything is transitioned over?

I can't imagine the furnaces would care about a little bit of Soybean oil!



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VADAVE

08-31-2006 09:02:08




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to paul, 08-31-2006 07:05:13  
Sorry Paul I don't agree with you. The fuel delievery folk mix the biodiesel when they prepare your order. It is not premixed and stored.



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jdemaris

08-31-2006 06:28:17




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:16:34  
Farm diesel/heating oil cost less to refine then any gasoline. So, there's some bullsh*t somewhere. I just filled my farm diesel tanks here in central New York State - cost $2.30 per gallon. Highway diesel at the pump is $3.20 per gallon. And, soon the new - ultra-low sulfur is going to be the only pump diesel - and I suspect it will be even higher. Diesel DOES weigh more per gallon than gas - so, it might cost a few more pennies to ship it than gas. And, you are actually getting more BTU engergy in a gallon of diesel. When Katrina hit New Orleans and Mississippi, the Fed. Government claimed that huge amounts of diesel were being used in recovery and rebuilding, and thus we'd have some "temporary" spikes. So far, doesn't look very temporary. Also, the Fed. governemt was giving waivers in New Orleans legalizing use of dyed fuel/heating oil in highway vehicles. Don't know if that ever ended, or not.

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MN Bob

08-31-2006 06:35:08




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to jdemaris, 08-31-2006 06:28:17  
There is another point, while I am sure there has been fuel used in recovery, especially the rebuildeing of dikes, the media is telling us very little has been done. So where has all the fuel and $ gone? Bob



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ebbsspeed

08-31-2006 12:13:54




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:35:08  
Most everything the military is using over there in towelhead country uses diesel, so I suspect that's driving up the cost a bit.



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IaGary

08-31-2006 06:41:27




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to MN Bob, 08-31-2006 06:35:08  
They claim that the NE United States still uses a lot of diesel for heating fuel.

But I don't know.

Also heard more deisel cars and trucks then in the past.

Gary



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Matt from CT

08-31-2006 07:50:19




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 Re: OT Deisel vs heating oil $ in reply to IaGary, 08-31-2006 06:41:27  
New England is still very, very big on oil.

I was kind of surprised to see a 27 unit condo development that was just built in town advertising "Oil Heat & Hot Water!"



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