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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Weak spark at points

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Bret4207

05-02-2006 12:25:38




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Good battery, new points, proper gap, new condenser, good cap and rotor. It ran fine a month ago on a freashly re-built engine. For 2 days I've tired to get good spark at the points. Just a weak spark is all I get. Voltage drop from battery is only 1/10 volt at points. Spark at plugs is weak too. I cleaned the ground and used a new terminal. The power side of the battery (positive ground system) gets a new terminal tomorrow. All I can think is that I have a huge voltage loss someplace. If the terminal doesn't help I'm looking at the ignition switch and all the other wiring and the coil. I checked and repaired the insulator where the power comes into the ditributor. This is a JD 1010 crawler loader. A bad coil wouldn't affect the spark at the points right? It gets awfully warm. Any ideas? I'm getting frustrated.

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Bret4207

05-03-2006 03:42:33




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Thanks to all. John I printed it all out. Time to get dirty.



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John T

05-02-2006 15:18:58




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Brett, if theres really?? a weak spark on the points when the points are breaking open and closing as you say, the cause is EITHER:

Theres a resistive voltage drop somewhere in the primary ignition circuit such as bad switch contacts; (my first suspicion) Try to hot wire direct to the coils input to eliminate any switch problem and see what happens???

The condensor is bad and may be a partial short drawing coil current regardless if the points are open or closed (second suspicion) See what happens with the condensor removed to eliminate any shorted condensor. It can still fire n work with no condensor but thE sparks weaker and the points would burn up quicker.

The coils primary is bad (I doubt thats it); A coil so warm you can barely hold your hand on it does sound suspicios however, like it may be going bad, does it have any classic burned electrical smell??? You sure theres no external voltage dropping ballast resistor or wire in the primary circuit????? ????

Theres resistance across the points caused by them being burned or pitted or carboned up;

The points arent getting a good ground;

If you place a voltmeter on the coils high input side with the points closed assuming they and all else is good, you ought to read near full battery voltage, whats yours read????? ?

The meter placed over on the coils other low (to distributor) terminal (with respect to frame ground) ought to read near battery voltage when the points are open but near zero volts when closed, whats yours read????? ?

The primary winding on a full 12 volt rated coil ought to read around 3 ohms resistance as measured bwtween its lil + and - terminals, whats yours read????? ?

This may be wayyyyy more then you need but heres my Troubleshooting Procedure for non spark on a coil ignition system.

TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!! !!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.

MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK

1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,, ,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.

2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test. 3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,, ,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,, ,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,, ,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,, ,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,, ,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,, ,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,, ,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,, ,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,, ,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,, ,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,, ,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are baddddd ddddd . Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

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noncompos

05-02-2006 15:01:24




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Among us shade-tree mechanics a hot coil was often a sure sign of its going bad. Good luck.



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frankiee

05-02-2006 14:03:44




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Take a hot wire direct from the battery and disconnect the old wire at the + of the coil.
This is to eliminate a wire problem on the live side. The current then runs through the primary side of the coil. If the primary winding is open just enough to cause excessive resistance inside the coil, then it would be a bad coil. Substitute with a known good one from the farm.

I think it will be one of those things.

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Bob

05-02-2006 12:36:04




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Does that system have a ballast resistor, possibly on the ignition switch, that drops the voltage before the coil? If so, there may be a wire to the "R" terminal on the starter solenoid that bypasses the resistor during starting, for hotter spark. If there's supposed to be a system like that, and the wire is unhooked, broken, or missing, you'll get weak spark during cranking.



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Allan In NE

05-02-2006 12:32:55




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 12:25:38  
Bret,

Assuming you've got good voltage ahead of the coil primary, it can only be one of two things, either a bad coil or a bad condenser.

Is the spark at the points a red/yellow color instead of a nice blue spark? If so, replace the condenser and see what you have.

Otherwise, I'd take a long hard look at that coil.

Allan



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mjbrown

05-02-2006 12:46:58




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Allan In NE, 05-02-2006 12:32:55  
Especially if it's getting"awfully warm".



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Bret4207

05-02-2006 13:08:41




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to mjbrown, 05-02-2006 12:46:58  
As soon as I wrote about the coil getting warm the thought tickled my brain that the coil may be bad. I've been messing with engines for 25 years and if it's the coil, it's the 1st one I've seen go like this.

No ballast resistor in the system. Thanks guys.



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alg

05-02-2006 13:30:39




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 13:08:41  
Bret,had one go on me last week.It's a 12v electronic ignition ,the guy from genesee said the same thing,"can't be the coil"Changed it out and fired right up.



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Bob

05-02-2006 13:11:12




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 Re: Weak spark at points in reply to Bret4207, 05-02-2006 13:08:41  
So, you're SURE there's no ballast resistor built onto the ignition switch, and you ARE seeing full battery voltage at the coil, correct?

Does it have carbon-core wires that could be bad, or solid-core wires?



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