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OT, Chevy Lumina up and died!

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1991 Lumina 3.

04-28-2006 05:17:12




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My wifes car died on us at 10pm at Walmart bout 2 weeks ago,,, ever have that happen to ya?? late evening, nobody to get ahold of to help out,,, just dont wanna wake em up ya know,,, So,, we was leaving the parking lot when the Lumina sputtered and died. After 15 minutes of cranking the starter, it did fire back up and we made it home,, barely,,,, but made it home, safe and sound. So, I figured it was the fuel pump, so replaced it, new filter too, bout 65 bucks,,, so, thinking my work was done and Id get of easy,, (yeah right) I hit the key and,,, and,, well NOTHING!! Still wont start. So, went to town bought a repair manual, (another 20 bucks) Picked up a MAP sensor,, those got out all the time, so what the heck right??? (35$ more) Put the sensor on, and now it will try and fire up, but dies as soon as it starts. I got high gas pressure at the little valve on the fuel rail,, That new pump is doing its job well,,, but no gas is reaching the injectors! I can spray a little starting fluid in the throttle body it will run till it burns out, or shoot gas from a spray bottle into it and it will run till it burns that out too. That pressure regulator on the rail,, Im thinking that may be whats going on here,,, When I do shoot gas into it, I can hear the injectors working,, I cant think of any electrical sensor or dohicky to stop fuel from reaching the injectors, other than the pressure regulator!! $135 more!! Pretty soon,, Ill have as much in the repair, as I had in the purchase price of the car! Sorry for sounding upset,, 2 weeks of messing around, and its still not up and running! (should have got a Ford)

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gab

04-28-2006 16:48:03




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
Follow Brads advice. I think he"s probably right on and you"re going to need about four injectors. Jim



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lucasss

04-28-2006 16:15:49




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  

id try crank position sensor . ive had many gm's doinng what your is doing and that was bad..lucas



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Dan-IA

04-28-2006 10:59:14




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
My pontiac did that last summer (high pressure at the fuel rail, nothing from the injectors.) Turns out the injectors themselves were slowly dying. Pull the fuel rail off and jerk the injectors. You can test them by checking the resistance on a multimeter.

Hint: If you have a little propane torch, stick it in the air cleaner and turn it on, and crank the motor. If the engine runs, then your injectors are probably the problem.

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Mike M

04-28-2006 08:41:52




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
Did you try a new crank position sensor ? These are in the side of the block and real hard to get at.



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KEB

04-28-2006 07:41:56




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
Look in the manual, it should tell you how to connect a light bulb in place of the injectors so you can tell if the controller is trying to fire the injectors. I"ve also seen testers at auto parts chains to do the same thing - they"re basically a light bulb mounted in a connector that matches the connector on the injector.

I had a 95 Chevy Astro one time that wouldn"t start unless you poured gas into the inlet, then would run perfectly once it started. Turned out to be a fitting on top of the in-tank fuel pump leaking. Found it by monitoring fuel pressure during cranking with a guage connected to the fuel rail test port. Injector pulse width is set to a fixed value during cranking, and then is determined by engine speed/load once it starts and the computer closes the control loop. In this case, there was enough pressure once it started that the computer could compensate by keeping the injectors open a little longer, but there wasn"t enough fuel pressure to start.

But a cheap air conditioning pressure guage to check fuel pressure with. The fittings on the old R-12 systems are the same as the fuel rail schrader valve.

Have you dumped the codes to see if the computer is showing some particular problem?

Keith

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1991 Lumina 3.1

04-28-2006 08:29:18




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to KEB, 04-28-2006 07:41:56  
I tested all the computer, sensors, etc etc from a known donor car that ran before the tranny went out. I put a noid light on the injector harness as well as put a test light in the wires to see if they pulsate, yes, they work fine. I removed the fuel rail with the injectors intact with the fuel lines still hooked up, grounded the rail, and turned the engine over, the injectors work, you can hear them click on and off. Im not getting pressure built up to get to the injectors. Question,,, on the pressure regulator,, if I cant activate the diaphram by vacuum, I mean,, I put the vacuum line on a running engine with a vacuum hose, the diaphram is not moving one bit, you can look into the regulator and see if it is moving,,,, Does the vacuum line actually open the regulator? If it does, and even high vacuum dont move the diaphram,,, would the regulator be shut off and not allow the fuel to just reach the schrader valve and not pressurize and circulate?? That new fuel pump shoots a stream out the line 2 feet long! I betcha I can fill a bucket pretty quickly. Yesterday, I did manage to get the car to start on its own,,, ran very good!!! I took it down to the corner and back, ran fine, then I floored it,,, it started surging and died again and will not even to offer to start. I got fire to the plugs,, trust me, I got zapped!! and I took every plug wire off and tested them. Like I said, I can pour gas into the throttle body,, and it purrs like a kitten till the gas runs dry,, Dont misfire, nor throw a trouble code out to the check engine light. About a week before it broke down, the check engine light came on and back off, I ran the code, was a lean O2 sensor,,, I cleared the codes, and it was fine,,, Thats why I belive nothing electrical is wrong,, just aint getting no fuel past the regulator to build up the 65 psi of gas pressure this system requires. The regulator,, I cannot get the spring loaded, vacuum operated diaphram in the regulator,,,to move by hooking up a hose to it with vacuum pressure, unless,,,,, the fuel pump pressure help aid to open the regulator,,, Book dont really say on how it works,, just how to change it,,,

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KEB

04-28-2006 11:10:27




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 08:29:18  
Like Bob says, the pressure regulator is on the return side of the fuel rail & with no vacuum connected pressure in the rail should be at the highest point. The fact that the pump will squirt a 2 ft stream only means that its producing adequate volume, not that it"ll produce the (as I seem to remember) 40 psi or so needed for the injectors to operate properly.

You really need to check the fuel pressure at the fuel rail. If it doesn"t come up to the specified value, plug the return line where it comes out of the regulator (squeezing the hose with a pair of vice grips generally works) & see if the pressure comes up. If the pressure comes to the right value when you close off the return line, the pump is OK & you probably have a bad regulator. If the pressure doesn"t come up to the spec"d value, then you have either a pump problem or a leak somewhere in the tank.

If you"ve replaced the pump, the prime suspect is the little rubber "pulsator" (I think that"s what its called) on top of the pump itself.

Keith

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Bob

04-28-2006 08:43:14




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 08:29:18  
The fuel pressure regulator restricts fuel from returning to the tank, to build pressure. It DOES NOT restrict fuel flow from the pump from getting into the fuel rail.

With NO vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator, the regulator will be at it's MAXIMUM pressure setting.

As vacuum is applied, it acts AGAINST the spring pressure on the diapragm, reducing fuel pressure a few PSI for better fuel economy at light load or idle.

Most regulator failures are diaphragm leaks that dump raw fuel into that vacuum line, and from there, into the intake.

About the only other way the regulator could fail would be if the spring broke, and there was no pressure against the diaphragm.

Then, without a buildup of pressure in the fuel rail, all the fuel would pass through the regulator, and through the return line, back to the tank.

Get a pressure gauge on there, and see what the pressure actually is. You've thrown a lot more money at it than what a fuel pressure gauge would cost!

If the fuel pressure is up to spec, you've got a problem with the 'puter cycling the injectors.

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Bob

04-28-2006 06:52:44




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
You should have (and still need to) get a fuel pressure gauge hooked up and see what's going on. If there is adequate fuel pressure, you can quit throwing money at the fuel side, and figure out why you are losing spark and/or power to the fuel injectors.



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Mark

04-28-2006 06:46:00




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
You know (or you should now) after buying all that crap you didn't need, sometimes it's cheaper to just take it to a Chevy dealer and let them fix it and get it over with.

I had a 91 Lumina, and it was, and still is an excellent car.....exwife has it. Once upon a time it ran hot and I could not figure why. Took it to Chevy garage and the mechanic said before he even looked at anything, he knew what it was. There is an aluminum fitting under the intake someplace, that will go bad and leak. You will never find it looking from the outside. Sure eneough, I watched him tear it apart and out came this corroded fitting. Cost me $191 to get it fixed. Worth it? Damned right! The car was fixed in one day, I would never have found it and I didnt suffer any scraped knuckles or invent new cuss words. It makes no difference what you paid for the car ($50 or $5000)..if it is a good reliable vehicle, get it fixed and move on.

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bradk

04-28-2006 05:53:16




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
First of all you're going about this the wrong way.Guessing what's wrong with your car gets too expensive.Fuel pumps in "W" bodies don't fail very often,and MAP sensors hardly ever go bad.
The big three on this car is fuel injectors,crank sensors,and like Allan in NE mentioned ignition module.From what you described,the injectors are to blame.
There's an easy way to test the injectors without removing the upper intake plenum.Locate the electrical connectors at the front of ECM(pass side eng.compartment).Unplug black 10 wire connector,and with a good ohm-meter,measure (on the male end) the resistance from the lt blue to black w/red tracer,and the lt green to pink w/black tracer.You should have no less than 4 ohms.If you do have less,then the plenum needs to come up and measure each injector separately.Each injector should be no less than 12 ohms.Let us know if quetions.~brad

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Allan In NE

04-28-2006 05:21:50




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 Re: OT, Chevy Lumina up and died! in reply to 1991 Lumina 3.1, 04-28-2006 05:17:12  
Sounds like you're not getting trigger. I'd try an ignition module.

Allan



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