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Land ownership question

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Buckeye

02-20-2006 20:45:21




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I own a piece of land that has a small piece of land(1/2 acre) adjoining it that was once used for a one room school years and years ago. A neighbor has decided he owns it and had it surveyed with his adjoining property across the road and has offered to sell it to me. The surveyor made up a new deed. I checked my deed(from 1951) and the previous owners deed and it says "with the exception of 1/2 acre to be used for a school house". I have always been told that land like this that ceases to be used for the original purpose reverts back to the landowner. Is this true? What should I do?

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paul

02-21-2006 16:07:09




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
While you are right, the person who wins is the one who spends the most on a lawyer in this case. See it all the time with RR right of ways - they are supposed to return to owner if tracks are pulled up. But, they do not. They get sold to highest bidder.

How it is.

--->Paul



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keith Freitas

02-21-2006 22:24:52




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to paul, 02-21-2006 16:07:09  
Actually ! The RR is like the counties supposed to file what is known as a "Notice of Abandonment"... search the hall of records in your county and if this was not done, a challange could be brought by the origional land owner. The issues really lies with the origional terrotory grant deed holder..... Most RR easements were based on entitlements back to itself on previous land held by deed by the RR and/or deeded easement which was a claim older /superior to the origional land owner or (contract of sale owner). Check to see if the new owner of an old RR easement has a "legal abandament from the RR or court jurisdiction. If the notice was not prepared properly, does not exist, or the current owner was not properly noticed of quite title actions effecting his land, he/she may have legal recourse.

Keith

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clueless

02-21-2006 15:05:16




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
I'm getting--no, I've gotten--too old for this: I forgot a MAJOR,MAJOR point: language(wordage) in deeds etc must(in some (all?)states) be construed in the way that language understood/used AT TIME DEED ETC WRITTEN (NOT as the same language/wordage would be construed or used now, as some interpretations have changed over the years in some states, and to use present understanding may mean missing the orig intent of the orig parties, which (intent)can be a controlling factor)..This's endless; it must feel like this when you're going down for the third time...Pls stop me before I post again..Seriously, With Sympathy

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clueless

02-21-2006 14:24:06




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
At 14 posts,Slim the latest, points raised could all apply, per words in original/later deeds/State laws and court decisions of Buckeye's state.
7-year tax pmts/open("adverse") use/possession usually requires some knowledge by losing party and court decree supporting ownership..not effective vs. Gov't'l body: old-time school may never have become part of any legal gov't school entity...
Conditional Use:Can, in some cases,thru such usage,"ripen" into full ownership...
Reversions: Quagmires.Courts can decide reverts to heirs of orig grantor, to heirs of somone in chain of ownership, to present owners of orig tract piece came out of, or that no reversion rights exist, all depending on words in deeds, etc...
Buckeye, pls stop posting; you keep making it worse (that's a joke, with sympathy)..
Reversion to State (Rawhide) sounds unusual if esmt or cond use, as does rt of first refusal to prev owners (jdMaris in NY) but both could be State differences (I did say "can of worms")...
(an easement is right to use anothers prop for stated purpose only; fee title/absolute fee is full ownership (sub to txs, gov't authority)...but a spectrum exists between the two, incl Cond't'l Use" and several others (often terms differ between states).
My apologies to anyone who's points I didn't cover...this's like reducing War And Peace to one chapter (I'm not really a know-it-all, but a reformed(?)title exam'n'r(CA,OR)
Oh: pub rds are generally esmts (exc maybe recent State Hwys and all Freeways)(Lord, in this business NEVER say "all"!!)and adjacent owners usually own that part of road within their orig bndry line, SUBJECT to pub use etc...(nothing about this is simple)...happy to talk to anyone that has questions...deal/compromise still sounds best all around..Good luck

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Keith Freitas

02-21-2006 22:40:04




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  



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slim

02-21-2006 10:01:04




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
It really depends on the state that you live in. We have the same type of situation with a small tract in the corner of our property. In our situation the public schools own the small tract even though there hasn't been a building of any kind on it for 55 years. We have used the property openly for all of the 55 years but can't get adverse possession against a governmental entity. We also can't buy it from the school system because no one wants to make a decision. So we just keep using it until someone finally tells us different.

slim

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Jerry/MT

02-21-2006 09:56:54




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
You need to see an attorney that is familiar with the laws in your state and who specializes in real estate law to advise you.



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jdemaris

02-21-2006 05:59:07




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
Anybody can make, alter or add to a deed - but they then have to decide who is going to defend it when questioned or challenged. I've had to change a few, and they were changed from warranty deeds to quit-claim deeds when altered. What did your neighbor and surveyor do, i.e. what type of deed was written? If it's a warranty deed, then someone or somebody has gone on record insuring it to be true title. If it's a quit-claim, it only means "whatever interest there may be" is transferred. I can legally sell you, by quit-claim deed the entire United States - because, in doing so, I am only transferring whatever rights I have - which might not exist at all. Now, with surveyors and survey lines - they don't necessarily mean much. A survey is simply an expert opinion - and that's all. In my area, there are many properties with multiple border lines in areas where two or more surveyors do NOT agree. Ulitmately, if the question goes to court - it gets settled by judicial decree or sometimes, mutual agreement and/or compromise by property owners. With the land in question, what was the use over years? If, lets say, the neighbor used the land openly, and kept others out, and he was told to cease - and did NOT cease - and nothing was done about it - he then has an "adverse possession" or an "adverse easement" in most states. I've got a similar situation on one of my properties. Over the past 15 years, people have created a road through the center of it, and now treat it as if it's a public road. I send out a letter every five years to all adjacent owners informing them that I am allowing it, i.e., I give them permission - but may retract it at any time. By doing this, they can never claim an adverse use. Someday, I'll have to gate it - but since it's 400 miles away, it's not practical since I can't keep an eye on it. There is also an "easement by proscription", and that is the way many public entities gets easements for public use and roads. Simply put, in most states, once an area is used by the public for 10 years, and any maintenance is done, an easement is automatically created. Here in New York, if a use is granted for a certain party or function, like for a school house, and it's an easement, not ownership, whoever owned it originally never lost ownership. If the property was actually transferred to the users/managers of the school house, then, once the use ends, the property is supposed to be offered for sale - first to the previous owners.

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Buckeye

02-21-2006 09:38:16




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to jdemaris, 02-21-2006 05:59:07  
I'm not sure what type of deed the owner has. It is sort of tricky the way the land lays. It is divided in three pieces by a road intersecting another. I have used a short road on my side to enter a pasture for many years(50+). The area across the road is used by another farmer and he assumed it belonged to him. The other owner who had the survey performed never had this piece surveyed with the piece by me because he evidently didn't know it was included in the school property. The school was actually located on the other side of the road on the third piece of the property and is on the side of the fellow trying to claim all of it. I did speak to the daughter of the original owner of the property across the road that is now for sale. She stated that her father tried to buy the schoolhouse property at one time, but was told it was not for sale and was deemed "community property". As far as I'm concerned, I don't want the three pieces of property. I just want the one by me. The farmer across the road who has no legal claim to it can have it, and the fellow wanting to sell me the land next to me can have the third piece of the property on his side. Sound fair?

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Rauville

02-21-2006 05:24:10




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
Every state will be different, but here in South Dakota that parcel of land would revert to the state, and be under the Dept. of School and Public Lands. You can look at a state map of school lands here, and there are hundreds of tiny pieces of land where once there stood a country school.

Regardless, I would think that any school land would remain public property until declared surplus by the local governing district or state. If I were you, I'd first check with the county Register of Deeds regarding original ownership and any succeeding transfers.
Good Luck

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Punchie

02-21-2006 05:09:04




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
HI Buckeye

Here in PA , 7 year law doesn't work that way. I would say you need to find out if you had an Land Easement or Right-of-Way. If there was not money pay to the owner of the land at the time the school was build or it was use by the school I would say when the school is done with it, it should go back to the owner. But if he was paid or cashed the check etc. It is a hard question.

I think your going to need a lawyer. Boy I don't like to use that word, meens two people are going to play to legal game and the only people that are going to be happy are the lawyers, They alway get paid. I think often way too much, if I work I'm lucky to get paid, and normal for them is 200 plus an hour. On there time schedule which is as long as they can drag it out as to make more money. And if you need to go to court look out going to cost you more.

Better if you talk it over and maybe ofter money for the lawyer to your neighbor. Than you would be done and save your self the time and money of a lawyer, And have the ground.

Teddy

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Buckeye

02-21-2006 04:50:38




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
Thanks for all the replys. I always enjoy your comments. It sounds like I can work with the other landowner to resolve the problem, but you never know. I doubt anyone has paid the taxes for the property since, as I understand it, the township trustees may have control over it the same as some local cemeteries(no taxes). My deed says it is an oblong square which covers yet more of another neighbors property. The survey only shows the property(triangle) on my side. I don"t agree with surveyors making up new deeds. Aren"t they required to research old deeds?

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kyhayman

02-21-2006 18:18:43




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-21-2006 04:50:38  
A surveyer, at least here, is only responsible to mark and lay out the boundary of the property of person who hires him. Its a great misconception that surveyers are some kind of all knowing arbitrator, they, like realtors, work for who hires them. This is one for the courts.

We have a similar situation. Tract of land, land locked with a court forced easement (never a good thing). Our deed says our line is on the north side of a rock, other party's deed says south side of the same rock. Over a dozen people killed since 1804 over this rock and the problem all dates to the territory was at one time claimed by both North Carolina territory and Virginia territory. Were it me I'd either quit claim it to him, or file action in court that he is seizing your property.

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KEITH fREITAS

02-21-2006 22:13:47




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-21-2006 04:50:38  



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hay

02-21-2006 03:46:29




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
i would think whoever pays taxes on the land and has a deed does indeed own the land. if it were mine and someone tried that kind of stunt, you can be assured that the fur would fly befoe i would let someone take it.



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Midwest redneck

02-21-2006 03:01:30




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
Show your neighbor that deed and see what he says. and if you get in a *issing match then say, okay we will split it....no need to make enemies over a 1/2 acre, unless there oil under it.



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T_Bone

02-21-2006 02:47:30




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
Hi Buckeye,

It sounds like to me you own the property as your title said they could use it as a school house or a conditional use. Once it's no longer used for the intended perpous then it reverts back to the original owner.

Who's been paying the property tax if in fact it's a seperate taxed parcel from yours? In most States after 7yrs of paying the property tax then one can file for a title to the property and may be what your neighbor has done.

I didn't know a surveyor could make up titles? I like to hear more about that one. My son just went thru a fence issue where his block fence was built on his neighbors property. Once a survey is recorded then it stands as record fact (time period unkown?) even if it was surveyed wrong.

Since your neighbor has claimed the land, it'll probably take a court to resolve the issue. I would be concerned about the new "title" that was/if filed at the County records. You will probably only have a short time to reclaim your land or file a grievance on the new title depending on the date it was filed with the County Clerk, so hop on it if you want your land.

Let us know how you resolved the issue as I interested in the out come.

T_Bone

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Leland

02-20-2006 22:50:49




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
In ILL they have a assumed ownership law which means if you have maintained and paid taxes on a piece of property for 7 years then it's your by law .



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clueless

02-20-2006 21:11:59




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 Re: Land ownership question in reply to Buckeye, 02-20-2006 20:45:21  
With all due respect, and sympathy:remember that old cartoon from Vietnem days, showing LBJ with a fishing pole and a can of worms labelled "Saigon politics"?..that's you...While it's true that language COULD be a reversion clause, it all depends on what State you're in and how your courts interpret these cases, AND the circumstances of your individual case...many factors come into play, and only an atty can advise you..and not just "an" atty, but an experienced land-use/real estate atty (you wouldn't go to a Podiatrist to have brain surgery)...and something to consider is: how much does your "neighbor" want, and if it's not much, how likely would a purchase "bury" any questions??? (Reversion to whom? the heirs of the party(Mr. A) who first put the "reversion" in?..to the party that Mr. A sold to (to come down to you, hopefully?) Reversions, when they exist, can be a real "can of worms"..Good Luck (you'll need it)

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