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Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it will n

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old

01-17-2006 21:01:43




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Ok I kno it will not owrk but would be nice if it could/would. Say you take an 8N ford, you use the cooling system to heat your house and the PTO to run a genny for power and the exhaust to heat up a still. Now eplain to me whay it would not work. I know it will not because I want to get something for nothing since the still is for makeing fuel to run the 8N. Just a fun/ mind question for you guy to figure out LOL

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Test

03-20-2006 09:21:46




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 Re: OT: Hmmm...The Rest of the Story? in reply to Rauville, 03-16-2006 18:15:22  
Please ignore.



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bradk

03-20-2006 08:51:17




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 Re: O/T Strange auction-what would you guys have d in reply to bradk, 03-20-2006 06:44:26  
Guys,Some very good points made that didn't think of.I should also point out this was the least thought-out auction I've ever been to.No toilets,no lunch,and when I wanted to pay to leave,no cashier!About a 5 hr auction.The cashier had to drive to the nearest truck-stop to pi$$.
Other than the 2 guys that work for me,no one else was from my city(20 mi away)because it wasn't in our local paper.
This might help to better understand the incompetance of the auctoneer and the illegal(?) activities that went on.SE Mn. ~brad

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Rauville

03-20-2006 07:33:36




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 Re: O/T Strange auction-what would you guys have d in reply to bradk, 03-20-2006 06:44:26  
Well, I think I could remember my late friend with something other than having his air compressor for my own price...sounds like sour grapes to me.
In this case, it appears the family probably did more harm than good by behaving like that.
I'm having a two day auction this weekend of my Mom's antiques, and I do not plan on attending the sale. I don't want to even give the hint of any conflict with the good people that hopefully will care to bid.

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JDB

01-18-2006 10:46:43




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
It will not work.
Neighbor would get wind of what I was doing and come over. He would want to try some of the "tractor fuel". It would be impolite for him to drink alone so..... .....What were we trying to accomplish again?



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John T

01-18-2006 08:24:20




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
Old, about any of that "Mother Earth" or "self sufficiciency" stuff will work, thats NOT the issue. The issue is Economics and the availability of energy and utility services where one is located. The bottom line is its hard to produce electricity or other utilities as cheap as the utility company or else no one would need to buy their product.

Other factors are quantitative energy and heat units. Yes a tractor radiator is a water to air heat exchanger and the heat the radiator removes from the water can be used to heat your house, but HOW MUCH AREA and how many BTU's of heat energy is really there, not all that many !!! Likewise, theres heat energy wasted out the exhaust pipe, but you have to use an air to air heat exchanger to get clean air free of CO to heat your house. Any methods of energy transfer use/waste energy themselves so thats a factor. PLUS theres the cost of the gasoline to drive all that stuff remember.

What the Mother Earth and self sufficiency gang need to utilize are the sources of energy the sun can provide (solar heat and photovoltaics) or if they live where theres a flowing stream or waterfall that potential energy mother nature has provided to run an alternator and the use of wind powered generators etc.

Bottom line THERES NO FREE LUNCH and we cant create or destroy energy, only change its form and those transformatiosn use energy themselves remember. If you think about it, all energy or the energy we use to heat out houses is SOLAR ENERGY right??? If we use coal or wood or gas, that all came about cuz the sun made it able for trees to grow and for other organic material to be formed which got buried under the ground and decomposed to form natural gas etc.

Good question Old, take care now.

John T

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old

01-18-2006 08:33:13




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to John T, 01-18-2006 08:24:20  
John, I understand it can not be done, because there is always waste when it comes to engines etc. So far every one has sort of missed the question. As I said use the exhaust heat to make fuel to run the engine and sort of makea big circle where you wouldn't have to add gas etc to keep it going. Sort of like tring to use a battery to run a motor and that motor to run a genny or alternator to charge the battery. I know that will not work because on lost energy in the wires/windinding etc. Thats what my quetion was and seeing if people could see the big picture.

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John T

01-18-2006 09:06:02




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-18-2006 08:33:13  
Hi again Old, good fun discussion, YES I realize you know it cant be done, so this is just tp discuss the big picture you call it so maybe we can all get that big picture you spoke of:

This all goes to the reasons a Perpetual Energy Machine cant work, it violates the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy physics principles. Theres no ideal machine that creates more energy then is put into making it run, as friction and other often heat related losses use up some part of the energy supplied into it. It takes more energy to run any generator then it develops, cuz theres friction heat losses and the magnetic inductive coupling involved in a generator isnt perfect either.

Be it a tractor or motor generator combination or any type of Heat Engine or anything,,,, YOU CAN NOT CREATE ENERGY (only change its form, but remember you loose energy (often friction heat) in the transformation) and the bottom line is whatever energy you put into a machine you get less out UNLESS ALL THE MACHINE WERE IDEAL AND PERFECT and say it had no friction (heat losses) and all its components were perfect lossless devices WHICH AINT POSSIBLE.

You or no one can produce an ideal perpetual motion type of device. True if you had a hermetically sealed adibatic enclosure and could capture and preserve the heat a machine developed you maybe havent wasted it, but to transform it back into a form of energy you can use takes another energy transfer device and again, theres no ideal lossless type of machine.

Sooooo oo it takes energy to run that ford tractor and no matter how or what types of devices you use to get energy out of it, you cant get more then you put in. Next figure the cost of the gasoline to run it and any cost savings from heating your house or the electricity from a generator it drives and if you use some sort of heat engine driven by its exhaust heat energy its not gonna provide more energy then was put into it either. Whats gonna happen when she runs out of gas???

Sooooo o, YES it will work for the Ford tractor to provide heat and electricity SO LONG AS YOU PUT GAS IN IT but if you have a device to convert its energy to a form that will keep it running (maybe some sort of exhaust powered heat engine etc to turn it when the gas runs out) and heaitng your house and providing its electricity I WANNA INVEST IN IT. Likewise if someone develops a machine process to use exhaust heat to make gas to run the tractor WE BETTER INVEST ALSO

Great n fun discussion Old

John T

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Mike M

01-18-2006 04:28:57




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
Not self fueling but I had thought about using a small diesel engine to heat my building. I kinda think it would give off more btu per gallon than a furnace. Main problem would be reclaiming the lost heat from the exhaust.



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Don L C

01-18-2006 08:23:24




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to Mike M, 01-18-2006 04:28:57  
You could use a heat exchanger... like those made for wood furnace/stove flue pipes.....



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JDknut

01-18-2006 03:42:04




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
They do that in industry, they call it a cogen. Severasl of the local plants have a cogen plant near by Also, some buildings at a local college use a big Waukesha natural gas engine to run a generator to power the building and the exhaust heat for the heating system.



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Farmered

01-18-2006 00:29:29




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
Old, why wouldn't it work? A few years ago Mother Earth News had the plans to use a Ford 2300 cc car engine to power a homestead. The cooling system was hooked up to a tank to provide hot water. The alternator charged a bank of batteries and the engine itself drove a larger alternator to provide 110/220 power to operate a well pump and etc. They claimed that in an hour a day the engine would provide all the power needed to run a rural homestead. Ed

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Bill Drew

01-17-2006 21:32:02




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
Probably would work (assume you are using the output of the still to run the tractor), though certain to get less heat into your house than if you simply burned the corn.



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mno

01-17-2006 21:09:34




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to old, 01-17-2006 21:01:43  
I say it would, seeing you are going with a ford.



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Jerry Cent. Mi.

01-18-2006 04:43:50




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to mno, 01-17-2006 21:09:34  
A company in Lansing, Mi. Has the dump plumbed and they draw out the gas and feed it to big engines that generates electricity. They sell the electro to the power co.



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the tractor vet

01-18-2006 05:15:49




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 Re: Ok heres one for you guys to tell me why it wi in reply to Jerry Cent. Mi., 01-18-2006 04:43:50  
I have been to a couple of waste sites to haul them engines out and back in as they don't have a vary good track record on long life , they keep comming unglued and i have hauled about a dozen of them engine block out to Tulsa to be repaired they are made by Dutze block bare weights in at around 8000 lbs



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