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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

12 volt coil without resistor

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deene

01-14-2006 17:46:57




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hi guys just went to the parts store and bought 2 12 volt coils..they were cheaper than the ones with internal resistor and i was wondering if the ballast resistor goes between the switch and the coil or between coil and distributor...thanks for the help




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John M

01-15-2006 05:17:44




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
SO what battery are you using, 6v or 12v? I have several tractors set up on 12 volt,12 volt coil no resistor at all,been like that for years and never burned a set of points.



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Hugh MacKay

01-15-2006 03:04:53




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
deene: You may look at the coil without the internal resistor as being much less expensive, today. In the next 10 years it will cost you perhaps 3 times as much, if you count your time. Why would you ever want one of those mickey mouse external resistors hanging on the side of your tractor.



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buickanddeere

01-15-2006 10:49:41




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-15-2006 03:04:53  
Using a 6V coil on a 12V system allows the use of a starting bypass circuit. A 12V coil on a 12v system can not have theadvantages of bypass start. There is no resisitor inside a 12V 3.0 ohm coil!!! The manufacture just uses twice as many turns of wire on the primary than they do on a 6V coil.



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Hugh MacKay

01-15-2006 12:50:04




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to buickanddeere, 01-15-2006 10:49:41  
Glen: That was not my point, he can buy both 6 and 12 volt coils that have built in resistors. They are labeled on the outside. I have 3 of these coils 1 - 6 volt and 2 - 12 volt. My point was spend the few extra dollars and get coils with built in resistors. They are worth the extra.



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buickanddeere

01-16-2006 16:34:29




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-15-2006 12:50:04  
Hugh, take an old 12V internal resisitor coil apart. There is no resistor inside. Just twice and many turns of heavy primary wire that an otherwise identical 6V coil..



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Hugh MacKay

01-16-2006 17:22:09




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to buickanddeere, 01-16-2006 16:34:29  
Glem: True, I did not word that correctly, it actually says, "no resistor required". My mistake, my old age and my hate for external external resistors tend to get me a bit uptight.



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RAB

01-15-2006 02:40:17




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
Deene,
Not sure what you have bought and certainly no idea as to the application. So just to explain why there are different coils.
6 volt coils for 6 volt applications.
12 volt coils for 12 volt applications.
6 volt coils + ballast resistor for 12 volt applications.
12 volt coil with internal ballast resistor (actually a 6 volt coil) for 12 volt applications .

The main thing is to understand why to have a six volt coil for a 12 volt job.
It is simply for better STARTING spark. End of story.
The way it works is at starting, a 12 volt coil may not get enough voltage (due to heavy current drain of starter) to produce a strong enough spark. So the designers fit a 6 volt coil which will give a good spark on a reduced voltage, 12 volt system for starting. But normal running would very quickly burn out contacts and/or coil, so they added a resistor to drop the current through the coil during normal running. It was called a ballast resistor in this application.
So your wiring will feed the coil directly from the starter solenoid (bypassing ballast resistor) only when the starter motor (solenoid) is energised (starting engine) and through the ignition switch via the ballast resistor for normal running.
Now what you actually need is determined by how or what your application has been designed or modified for.
Regards, RAB

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RN

01-15-2006 00:17:45




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
12 volt coil, no internal resister. Wireing from switch to coil has external resister, another wire with diode in curcuit coming from starter solenoid or relay- this allows about 12 volts from starter to go to coil on starting, get strong spark. When engine running and starter not energized the switch circuit with resister will feed coil with about 7.5 to 9 volts of the about 14 volts in charging circuit. Diode in wire from starter cicuit will prevent backfeed to starter from coil. Short explanation of starter bypass use. Note that some small engine and early hot rod coils may run full 12 volts- warning on a Kohler replacement coil box. RN

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old

01-14-2006 20:46:51




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
Short, sweet and simple. The ballast resistor goes between the switch and the coil.



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John T

01-14-2006 18:55:08




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
Deene, First of all if you bought a true full 12 volt (what some call an internally ballasted) rated coil and are using it on a 12 volt tractor. YOU DONT USE ANY EXTRA SERIES BALLAST RESISTOR. It takes the full unballasted 12 volts.

HOWEVER if its labeled "12 volts for use with an external ballast resistor" then its in reality a 6 volt coil and does indeed need the external series voltage dropping (12 to 6) Ballast Resistor

The more typical use of the external series voltage dropping (12 to 6) Ballast Resistor is when youre using a 6 volt coil on a 12 volt tractor. It drops 6 volts across it leaving the remaining 6 across the 6 volt coil so it runs at its designed current and voltage and resultant heat.

A typical 6 volt coil will have around 1.25 to 2 ohms primary resistance measured between its lil + and - terminal while a true full 12 volt coil will have around 2.5 to 3 and over.

NOTE; If you use an external series ballast, it should be wired after the ignition switch and before the coil NOT between the coil and distributor. After the points open the condensor is in series with the coil and some ringing occurs.

Hope this helps, post back any questions, good luck and God Bless

John T

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J. Schwiebert

01-14-2006 18:31:00




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
Wait a minute here. The difference between a 12 volt coil and a 6 volt coil is the resistor is built inside the 12 volt coil and no external resistor is required.



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KEB

01-14-2006 18:40:55




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to J. Schwiebert, 01-14-2006 18:31:00  
12 volt coils are available both with and without internal resistors, although the external resistor type is more common. There's actually an advantage to using one designed for an external resistor, in that the resistor can be bypassed during starting to provide a hotter spark. You can't do that with an internal resistor. That's what the extra terminal on the starter relay or selenoid on cars with point type ignition is for.

Keith

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J. Schwiebert

01-15-2006 08:44:49




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to KEB, 01-14-2006 18:40:55  
You and I are talking about two different time periods and this has nothing to do with cars or trucks. But when farm tractors went to 12 volt systems they used 12 volt coils. Later on when they went to the external resistor they went back to 6 volt coils.



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Bob

01-14-2006 18:51:52




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to KEB, 01-14-2006 18:40:55  
In actual practice, few, if any, modern 12-Volt coils that do not require an external resistor actually have an internal resistor, as a discreet component.

They are simply wound with more turns of wire in the primary, to accomodate 12-Volt power without excessive primary current draw that would overheat the coil and/or burn the points.

And, KEB, I fully agree with you about the efficacy of the external resistor with a starting bypass.

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Sam#3

01-14-2006 17:51:32




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to deene, 01-14-2006 17:46:57  
Electrically it doesn't matter. Mechanically place it where it fits.
It'a a series circuit!



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KEB

01-14-2006 18:04:08




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to Sam#3, 01-14-2006 17:51:32  
Actually, it does matter. The return path for the high voltage pulse back to the coil is from the engine block, through the condensor & the wire connected to the points. Doing it this way allows the voltage induced in the primary winding to be added to the voltage induced in the secondary winding, giving a little bit hotter spark.

That's also why the case of an ignition coil does not have to be grounded for it to work - the high voltage current does not return through the case of the coil. If you put the ballast resistor between the coil and the points, you've added series inductance to the high voltage point path (wire wound resistors like a typical automotive ballast resistor have significant inductance and are intended to be used only in DC circuits).

Put the resistor between the power source and the coil, not between the coil and the points.

Keith

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Bob

01-14-2006 18:47:08




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 Re: 12 volt coil without resistor in reply to KEB, 01-14-2006 18:04:08  
KEB,

Thanks for posting that!

You are absolutely correct. I have posted that info so often here, and it doesn't seem like anyone evers sees the correct information, or remembers it.

There is more to a Kettering ignition system than many people realize. The coil and condensor form a resonant circuit, and the coil "rings" at each spark event. The better the "Q" of the primary circuit, the better the coil "rings" and the "hotter" the spark. You DON'T want the resistor between the coil and the points/condensor to add resistance OR inductance there.

Anyone who has ever viewed the operation of an ignition system on a 'scope is familiar with this.

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