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Who engineered this????

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Roy Suomi

01-07-2006 20:53:22

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I went to our local Ford Car/truck dealership last week and walked thru the shop to get to parts dept..On my mosey thru the garage, I saw a new F-550 with the cab and partial frontend suspended from the above ground lift. Below was the chassis still on the floor. They had to remove the cab and frontend to remove the engine.. Now , thats some real engineering....

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BLW

01-09-2006 07:50:08

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Yeah ford auto be proud-- no wonder they aren"t selling any cars and now trucks-- how about the oil pans we have a bunch of guys in the fire co with newer fords- oil pans rusting out in 4 or 5 years- expensive repair--and how bout the oil pumps on all the veh"s from about "90 up going bad-- and the gas tanks and pumps talk about expensive- we have got to start a massive mail in and paper article on this not only ford but GM to with their tranny"s, Wiring prob. front ends--- no wonder toyota and nissan are doing so well even though they have raised their prices way to high- and have the old timers from WW2 etc to convince we should be buying from them in the first place..

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Galen

01-09-2006 07:30:44

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

It's been that way for awhile. They don't have to remove the body, but it makes it easier to work if they do.

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Billy NY

01-09-2006 07:22:36

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Some interesting information, I've got a short fleetside box '96 F-150 4x4 with the 300 six, pan is probably the same on this one. Years ago also had the 78 Monza, but with a 4 cyl. To change the fuel pump, you have to unhook that side engine mount and jack the engine up, I was thinking the same about the designers at the time but now that I think about it, it was not so bad, and having an understanding of the engineering world, I'm sure there are challenges to make things work in the automotive industry, like in the construction industry, just that the end user would like to know things like this up front I suppose. I have always said that designers need some field exposure, it certainly would help them, this is especially true in the construction industry. Some items may be mis-coordination and others may be oversight, it happens in a lot of industry, kind of hard to bash the designer unless you have all the facts about it. I do know how it feels to wrestle with something that appears could have been made easier to work on, while out in the elements cold, snow, rain, letting it get you angry never helps in getting it done though, just more work and the sooner you get it done, it's over.

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Jerry/MT

01-08-2006 19:46:06

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

I don't think it's fair to criticize the engineers without out knowing what the design requirements were. You be surprised at what influence designers and stylists have on the product. Based on my experience, the program design and development engineers don't usually control the design requirements.

A retired engineer with 34+ years experience.

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cornfarmer

01-08-2006 18:57:59

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Poor engineering depends on your point of view. Like it or not, "highly engineered" assemblies accomplish several things:
1. Keeps shade tree mechanics from attempting to work on their products.
2. Increases dealership service department revenue by increasing time per repair.
3. Job security for mechanics.
4. WOW factor. When you spend huge dollars for new equipment, it can't look too simple or people wonder why the big dollar sticker price. IH built a simpler combine and people still wiilingly bought Titan series Deeres for their "engineering".

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wdtom

01-08-2006 17:03:05

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Well if trucks had a truck front axle instad of that independent junk there would be room to remove an oil pan. As for the other engineering screw ups, well if engineers had to serve a two year "apprenticeship" working on what they were going to design before the company allowed them to design it , well we wouldn't have stuff like this.

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johnlobb

01-08-2006 15:31:30

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Harley is right. The "75 and "76 Chevrolet Monza had a spark plug that was almost impossible to reach. (Right rear I think). The Sunbeam Alpine Tiger of the middle 60"s had the same problem, but they put a little door in the floorboards on the passenger side to access it. It had a Ford 260 cu in V-8 in it. John L.

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doodelbug

01-08-2006 18:52:45

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to johnlobb, 01-08-2006 15:31:30

ahhhh the sunbeam tiger. i remember one of those in germany, about 1969, very few tools and something about a chisel to change the spark plugs. brings back fond memories,lol.

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Jim K

01-08-2006 12:18:30

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Tis true, my son is a certified Ford mechanic, and he says that they do it all the time and that it is the easiest way to do them.
It's no wonder, Ford has them shoved way up under the dash. But I wouldn't trade my "02" Diesel F-350 4x4 1-Ton dump W/Fisher 9' plow. (sorry I had to get all that in there), for any other vehicle out there, all I have had to change in the three years that I've owned it is one rear u-joint, not even a glow plug, yet!
One thing I would like to say is that I hate people that put down someone's choice of truck, my feeling is if that's what blows yer hair back so be it, as long as you are happy with the dicision that you made, that's all that matters.
Besides all three top U.S. manufacturers get some of thier major components from the same companies, axles and transfer cases for instance, even transmisions. companies like New Process and Borg Warner, Allison, Spicer Dana, Sterling, and a new one American axle mfg, and the list goes on.
All three companies use these manufacturers. My only complaint is that GM went with Isuzu for thier diesel. I would like to see a nice Detroit under the hood of the Chevy and GMC. one with a 6-71 blower on it. or blower and turbo, now there's some awesome power for ya! arr arr I know GM or someone made'em because I saw one in an old retired fire truck, (6-71 blower and Turbo-ed) Just my two pennies
Jim K

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John M

01-08-2006 12:06:53

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Its like that because the engine is alot heavier than your everyday passenger car,in fact it probaly wieghs as much. Me personally,I dont care how its put together as long as Im not the one having to take it apart.

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Brad Wright of MO

01-08-2006 08:55:54

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Thats your FORDS for ya

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JohnDeereGreen

01-08-2006 11:46:02

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Brad Wright of MO, 01-08-2006 08:55:54

Brad,
If you want to start an argument, go to the OT board, but not here. I will agree though, that is pretty stupid engineering, though.
JohnDeereGreen

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Brad Wright of MO

01-09-2006 13:21:26

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to JohnDeereGreen, 01-08-2006 11:46:02

Now Now you dont have to get all hormonal it was just a joke and I didnt see anyone else complanin but you.

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Russ Smart

01-08-2006 07:48:07

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

My son has a 91 F150 4wd 300-6 and the pan gasket is leaking. It looks to me like the pan cannot be remove without jacking up the engine, any input on this? Thanks in advance!

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Feron

01-08-2006 08:26:58

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Russ Smart, 01-08-2006 07:48:07

Hi Russ, You are right, You have to jack the engine up as high as you can without breaking anything and then you still can barely get the pan off, Then when you put the pan back on it is even tougher. Good luck

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Bob

01-08-2006 08:45:38

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Feron, 01-08-2006 08:26:58

IIRC, you drop the pan as far as possible, unbolt the oil pickup screen, and drop it into the pan, and then you can slide the pan back and down.

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dbear

01-08-2006 07:01:47

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

My brother had a '76 Nova, straight 6, that to change the oil pan (numerous cracks, not worth repairing) had to remove motor mounts and jack up front of engine to remove pan. The pan design made it impossible to clear the front axle/crossmember unless you did. The dumbest part of this whole mess was that GM, thru all their offical maintenance literature (written by people who never actually did the job), maintained it was not necessary.

Pi$$-poor engineering has been around for centuries!

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RustyFarmall

01-08-2006 06:54:02

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

Cars and trucks have been getting progressively more difficult to work on over the last several years. For this reason I won't do much more than change the oil and filter on my truck, and maybe the belt. Anything else and it goes to the dealer, and hopefully it will be traded off before it needs anything serious. Give me an old tractor any day.

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Chris(WA)

01-08-2006 05:27:42

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

That is how a local dealer does engines in all the ford trucks from the F-150 on up since 1997. The mechanic says its the quickest and easiest way to do it. Only six bolts, the steering linkage and a modular electrical connection. That is how Ford puts them in....

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bradk

01-08-2006 12:45:51

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Chris(WA), 01-08-2006 05:27:42

Hi Roy;
Yes,easy on a F-150,jus a few bolts & harness connectors,but how about an Expedition or an Excursion.Gets pretty UGLY having to pull the whole body off.Nothing like rubbing salt in the wound,because more than likely the engine needs a cylinder head because of another engineering boner.Spark plugs blowing out of heads & taking all the threads w/it.Casting too thin at plug hole.~brad

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Bill(Wis)

01-08-2006 05:20:17

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

General Motors built a car that required removal of the engine to change the rearmost sparkplug but I can't remember the make, model or year. Does anyone remember?

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Maybe this one

01-08-2006 10:45:49

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-08-2006 05:20:17

Vega maybe? Problems
Forgotten today is that the Vega was a strong seller, with over two million produced from 1971-77, however, it was plagued by poor reliability and several highly publicized design problems including carburetor fires, engine overheating problems, and premature body rust, which began to affect sales after 1974. The Vega was later dubbed as "the car that began rusting on the showroom floor". Labor/management strife at its Lordstown, Ohio production plant added to the car's woes. Its rival counterpart, the Ford Pinto, was known for ruptured fuel tanks, where the Vega's own defects were the oil-burning motor and body corrosion.

In a book later published by John DeLorean who was then president of Chevrolet, he indicated that the prototype car literally fell apart just eight miles into its first road test. Delorean claimed that the car had been designed by GM engineers rather than Chevrolet engineers and said that the car had been forced upon Chevrolet by GM management. He also criticized the engine saying that it, "looked like it had been taken off a 1920 farm tractor."

All these well publicized problems combined with a string of recalls hurt public perception and sales. Forbes Magazine included the Vega on its list of the worst cars of all time.

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Bill(Wis)

01-08-2006 13:07:20

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Maybe this one, 01-08-2006 10:45:49

Ah, yes, the Vega. Am I ever glad I didn't buy one. The engine block was aluminum. One of the first ever, I think. Silicons were used to harden the cylinder walls. Unfortunately, the radiator was about the size of a postage stamp with no coolant recovery system. Severe overheating resulted whenever the fluid was down even a little bit which caused the aluminum to go into meltdown. General Motors screwed up the car even more when they used paint that evaporated the new undercoating they had developed resulting in the cars leaving the factory with bare metal on the underside. I had, fortunately, taken a vow by that time to never, ever, buy anything again with the name Chevrolet on it, so I missed the experience of owning one.

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Hugh MacKay

01-08-2006 13:48:25

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-08-2006 13:07:20

Bill: I remember a guy that sold his house in the city, bought a lot near my farm about 60 miles from his work place. He then bought a new Vega for the comute to work. He bought 3 of them in two years, didn't give up easily. I think it was a 76 and two 77s or viceversa. I remember his wife wouldn't go anywhere with him. Every time they went out together it was her car that got used. Finally in 78 he gave up on the Vegas.

He was still rather brave, buying the first 5.7 Olds conversion diesel in a pickup, sold in our area. GM replaced the engine in that once, but he must have clocked a half million miles in that Chevy pickup. If I recall correctly he replaced it with a Ford 6.9 about 87 or 88.

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Bill(Wis)

01-08-2006 14:34:41

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-08-2006 13:48:25

I have a book called "Lemons". It's all about the worst cars ever built and, yes, the Vega is prominently displayed and written about in it. It gives us something to laugh about now but the poor people who owned them were even poorer afterward.

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Harley

01-08-2006 07:10:27

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-08-2006 05:20:17

There was one, I think again a 76 chebby, maybe a Monza with the V-8 that you had to take loose the left hand motor mount and raise the engine to get at a spark plug on that side. I think I remember that in subsequent years they cut a hole in the inner fender and you went in through the outside wheelwell to get at it. Ya, there ought to be a law that if you engineer it, you have to be the first one that has to work on it just to see if it"s possible. Just like 5 million truck seats used to be. The old Bostrom Westcoaster, applied in 90% of all trucks at the time consisted of about 3 inches of foam on a piece of plywood. After about 40 miles your butt was on the plywood and stayed there for the rest of the trip. Really comfortable. Harley

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xragman

01-08-2006 13:21:04

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Harley, 01-08-2006 07:10:27

Yep was the V-8 vaga. In 1980 I had a74 mustang II with V-6. had to nearly pull engine to change starter. In 1951 I had a 48 plymouth that was a real job to get oil pan off without raising engine some. this bad design (thats what I call it )goes way backin time. I remember my dad complaining about it before I got big enough to do any wrenching.

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Gene Davis (Ga.)

01-08-2006 19:41:08

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to xragman, 01-08-2006 13:21:04

1956 Plymouth V-8 to change the spark plugs yuo had to get under it or have it on a hoist.

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Gene Davis (Ga.)

01-08-2006 19:40:36

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to xragman, 01-08-2006 13:21:04

1956 Plymouth V-8 to change the spark plugs yuo had to get under it or have it on a hoist.

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Gene Davis (Ga.)

01-08-2006 19:36:59

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to xragman, 01-08-2006 13:21:04

1956 Plymouth V-8 to change the spark plugs yuo had to get under it or have it on a hoist.

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Hugh MacKay

01-08-2006 06:09:40

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Bill(Wis), 01-08-2006 05:20:17

Bill: I think it may be my 86 Buick LeSabre. Not certain but definately a candidate.

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Tim B From MA

01-07-2006 21:18:30

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

I have a 2001 F-350 with diesel. When it was about 4 months old, they had to replace a part that is bolted to the bottom of the engine block inside the oil pan. They had to remove the engine to get the oil pan off. The oil pan started leaking a few months ago, and I brought it in before my 5-year warranty on the drive train expired. This time, to replace the oil pan they removed the engine AND the transmission. One wonders how many times Ford has had to pay for this. I realize this is an International engine in a Ford truck buy one would think you could design a oil "bucket" that could be removed without having to take the whole darn truck apart.

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NC Wayne

01-07-2006 21:07:23

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to Roy Suomi, 01-07-2006 20:53:22

I was watching I believe it was HP TV the otherr weekend and they were doing an engine upgrade on one of the newer "hot rods". In order to get the engine out of it you had to pull the front suspension, along with assorted other front end parts. When you got everything loose you picked the rest of the car up off the engine. I agree it's a dumb a-- idea but on the other hand given a cghoice I'd rather remove the cab to get to the engine than to remove everything else but the engine to get to it..... ..Give me the an old car with an engine I can work on and tweek for a few dollars and I'll give you a car that can develop twice the HP of a new car and still still get just as good or better gas mileage and still pass most emissions tests with better results than a new one..... ...Heck my '78 Jeep J-10 had lower emissions readings than a new car the last time it was tested according to the guy doing the testing.....Just my .02..... .

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buickanddeere

01-08-2006 06:56:45

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Re: Who engineered this???? in reply to NC Wayne, 01-07-2006 21:07:23

I doubt the twice the HP. Have you looked at the numbers at Chev LS-1 etc series of engines produce? Stock they make big block power with small block displacement.

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