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Once apon a time

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Markloff

11-30-2005 17:01:46

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Once apon a time one of the benefits of running a diesel other than the better economy was the CHEAPER fuel. I live in MN and diesel has been 50-60 cents higher than gas for well over six months now. A year and a half ago it was 10-20 cents cheaper. E-85 has been 40 cents cheaper than gas for well over six months also. If you do the math that puts E-85 at abot a dollar cheaper than and about 62% the price of diesel.

This leads me to a question. Would it make sense to build a high compression gas engine in a more modern style farm tractor to compete with operating a diesel cost wise? I'm thinking a 560/706 Farmall or 1850 Oliver or the like. By running E-85 you could boost the compression to well over 10 to 1 by using propane heads with domed pistons or even turbo charging or a combination of any of the three! As a side benefit running alcohol as a fuel will increase engine life substantially over running gas.

Oliver did just this in the late 50's with a four cylinder gas engine at 12 to 1 compression. It was powered by high octane gas and was said to give the economy of a diesel. They called it the XO-121. There is a picture of it in the Nebraska tets book. Anyone know any thing more about it?

One must also keep in mind that most gassers built in the 50's and 60's were designed to run on 70 octane gas for tractors. Rarely was compression over 7 to 1. At the same time however cars and trucks were all 9 to 1 minimum as they were designed to run on higher octane fuel.

I know first hand what a little more compression will do for a tractor. My Dad has a SMTA with a propane head built to a 450 bore. He also has a 450 (bought new by my Grandfather in '58). There is no comparision between the two. The SMTA is more responsive and a lot stronger. They don't even sound the same and they have the exact same muffler on each of them.

Any ideas or input?

Mark

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Hoosier Pete

12-01-2005 14:36:40

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

Don't forget, It takes LOTS of alcohol to equal the power output of gasoline. Plus, alcohol motors (engines) like lots of RPM and don't like to be lugged. But, then again, hotrodders just like build'in stuff.
Pete

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markloff

12-01-2005 16:42:22

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Hoosier Pete, 12-01-2005 14:36:40

Alcohol engines take NO more fuel to make the H.P. of a gas engine! Do not confuse a fire breathing METHANOL race engine with an ETHANOL engine. If you built an engine for ethanol use with 12/14 to 1 compression it would get the same economy as a gas engine with 8/9 to 1 compression.

Know anyone with a flex fuel engine in their car? You can get 85-90 of the economy on E-85 that you get running gas. The reason you don't get the full ecomony on E-85 (85% ethanol) is because the compression is held lower in order to be able to operate on pump gas. The only thing that's changed when switching between gas and E-85 is the fuel delivery and spark timing.

I agree that lugging a high compression alcohol motor down to the last revoluion like they do in tractor pulls will cause pre-ignition but this is not real world use anyways. I also think that the reason high RPM race motors on alcohol don't like to lug down is because they were designed as high RPM race motors?!?

Don't compare apples to oranges

Mark

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Hoosier Pete

12-01-2005 14:29:59

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

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doogdoog

12-01-2005 11:32:13

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

Aloha, Yes,the price of diesel is very high but I think that an industrial diesel (built stronger than a gasser) runs at a lower rpm than a gasser to get the same work done. I would think that a hopped up gasser would require more maintenance in the long run costing more money and it will also use more fuel than a diesel would. I also think that the stock parts would be subject to more stress because of the added hp and rpm causing them to break often. One would have to modify the weak parts and that would cost money.

Mahalo,
doogdoog

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xragman

12-01-2005 06:28:33

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

cowman has pointed out just 1 of the major problems with this idea.In the long run one will never recover the cost to change everthing needed to make this work. being an old hot rodder, just MHO.

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Nebraska Cowman

12-01-2005 05:10:18

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

You can. I have a 560 on propane that will burn 4-5 gal an hour and a 656 diesel with the same motor that struggles to burn a gallon and a half. It just takes more lighter fuel to make the same ponies.

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mowr

11-30-2005 19:38:54

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

Now that they've come up with a diesel/alcohol blend that they claim is working out well in diesel engines, perhaps we'll have another choice to consider before long.

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Miles

11-30-2005 17:26:11

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Markloff, 11-30-2005 17:01:46

Good idea... What safe compression can run up to using E85?

Regards

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DHG

11-30-2005 18:46:40

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to Miles, 11-30-2005 17:26:11

You would also want to look at a different camshaft profile to bleed off some compression.. Tractors lug, and high compression gas/alcohol motors don't like it. Carb jetting would also be critical. But you gotta like hot rod tractors.

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Jerry Cent. Mi.

12-01-2005 04:56:10

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Re: Once apon a time in reply to DHG, 11-30-2005 18:46:40

I believe that it would diesal like mad when you try to shut it off.

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