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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Why does a coil blow?

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550Doug

11-22-2005 05:44:47




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A few months back, my generator gave out and burnt some wiring so I took the opportunity to change over to a one-wire alternator system with a 12 volt neg ground. At that time I rewired and I also put on a new coil, 12V with internal resistor, just like the old one. It"s been running just fine for 3 months, ammeter works and indicates charging at 1/4 throttle. So yesterday the new coil failed! WHY?? Do alternators periodically spike? It was a new AGCO coil and did the job just fine for 3 months. It would get warm, but I think that"s normal, but it was never hot.
So now I"m looking at putting on a Pertronix system and here is a quote from their instructions: "Six and eight cylinder engines require a minimum of 1.5 ohm resistance. Four cylinder engines require a minimum of 3.0 ohms of resistance." So I"m wondering, do internal resistors blow?, What is the function of these resistors? Why do 4 cyl need more resistance? Can I measure the coil output voltage on a regular voltmeter?
I appreciate your responses. Thanks

PS the tractor is a 1961 Cockshutt 550.

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550Doug

11-22-2005 13:44:08




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to 550Doug, 11-22-2005 05:44:47  
Thanks folks!! What an education!!
So I've just installed the Petronix ignition set with a new 33000V coil. I had to do it outside in a COLD snow flurry at 28F and my fingers were freezn. But when that motor sprung to life on the FIRST try, I just got warm all over!! I brought it inside to adjust the sparkplug gap to .035 and am I ever glad I decided to do the Pertronix touch. Mind you, this is my first experience with these points and coil, but with the track record of this site giving reliable on-target advice, I'm sure that I'll get good performance out of this setup for a long time to come. Thanks again for the advice!

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buickanddeere

11-22-2005 13:15:35




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to 550Doug, 11-22-2005 05:44:47  
A "internal resistor" 12V / 3.0 ohm coil does not have a resistor inside. Just twice as many primary turns as a 6V / 1.5 ohm coil. The secondary side is identical for 6V or 12V.



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John T

11-22-2005 06:31:40




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to 550Doug, 11-22-2005 05:44:47  
Doug, I just dont have any data or know the particular characteristics of your one wire alternator, but can still answer some of your questions about coils and ballast resistance.

I can tell you its typical for an alternator to increase the battery voltage and resultant coil current a bit more then a generator (say 14.5 or over versus 13 to 14), which would make a coil run slightly warmer, but I dont see that as cause for any "extreme" premature coil failure, more like over a longgggg gggg period if even then. Another cause of premature point burning and/or premature coil failure could be a weak condensor. Those are current switching and energy absorbing passive devices which an increase in current could cause them to last less time. If unsure of the condition of the condensor I would recommend it be replaced !!!!!

You asked about internal ballast failures, but I would think the coil windings and/or their high voltage insulation withstand capacity would be more prone to failure then any pure resistive ballast portion of the coil. (Absent any specifications, however, I cant say for sure if there is a pure stand alone ballast resistor portion of your coil or if theres simply more DC resistance in its windings). Sure a coil can and does fail time to time, but I would bet failure occurs more often from high voltage breakdown versus any pure ballast failure (if it contains such).

You asked about increased ballast for an engine with less cylinders. If an engine has less (4) cylinders, the duty cycle of coil current increases cuz the points are open less time/cycles then they would be on a 6 cylinder engine. The 6 cylinder has the points opening n closing more often (shorter dwell time) so its sort of like theres less net effective current over time during which the coil can heat up. It may help if you consider the extremes of a one or two versus an eight cylinder engine. On a one cylinder the points are almost ALWAYS CLOSED versus on an eight cylinder when they are opening n closing rapidly. THEREFORE, you need more current limiting ballast resistance to reduce the net effective coil current and heat build up the less cylinders and duty cycles.

I have seen coils labeled "For use on electronic ignition" and the difference in design has to do with the fater and more positive switching of an electronic device versus the bouncing n ringing and necessity of a condensor in the points type ignition. The coil would likely work on EITHER ignition but may not last as long if used incorrectly.

If you go with an electronic switch I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the use of a high energy high voltage coil in order to realize the full benefits the switch has to offer. Make sure the switch is matched for the proper coil (the Pertronix techs can help with that) and the switch matches your polarity and one usually runs a wider plug gap also.

About measuring the coils output voltage !!! That takes a certain high voltage voltmeter that wouldnt arc internally and theres such a short time the voltage is present its NOT something you can do at home with a Radio Shack cheap meter. The voltage the coil rises to is dependant upon the medium (fuel and compression) and the distance across the plug gap and it rises no higher then necessary to jump that gap then it collapses.

Sooooo ooooo why does a coil blow????? ? I would say excess current caused by excess voltage and/or insufficient ballast resistance is a likely suspect (coil runs hotter) followed by a mis matched coil for the application (points versus electronic) and a bad condensor !!!!! !!!!!

Hope this helps, good luck n God Bless

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

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RAB

11-22-2005 08:36:46




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to John T, 11-22-2005 06:31:40  
John T,
You both about hit it on the head.
I would also add that leaving the coil energised for long periods without the engine running could have a detrimental effect on coil life, as could an oil leak - or just plain too litle oil in a cheap coil. They seem to cut as many corners on production as they can, to keep manufacturing costs to a minimum. Sometimes the older over-designed products were better!
Regards, RAB

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John T

11-22-2005 10:09:07




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to RAB, 11-22-2005 08:36:46  
RAB, good to hear your thoughts, I certainly agree as to the potential harmful effects of leaving the igniton for extended periods when shes not running, other then draining the battery, the coil gets hot as thats a 100% duty cycle with the points always closed and shes drawing a constant current OUCHHHHH HHHH As we know an engine dont stop at any compression TDC when the points would be open and NOT conducting current.

best wishes

John T

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Bob

11-22-2005 06:04:35




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to 550Doug, 11-22-2005 05:44:47  
With very few exceptions, there is no such thing as a coil with an "internal resistor".

If the coil was only running warm, and not so hot you could fry an egg on it, I doubt the system voltage was too high for it.

Coils designed to be used WITHOUT an EXTERNAL resistor are simply wound with more wire eliminating the need for an EXTERNAL or INTERNAL resistor.

Modern alternators generally have their regulators set a bit higher than generators of some years back, but usually that is in the range of what a round-can coil will tolerate. You probably just got a defective coil. (A while back, I had a new one bad right out of the box.)

Another coil "killer" is a bad spark plug wire, or other poor connection on the secondary side. If the voltage is having a problem getting to a spark plug, it will take another path to ground, possibly inside the coil, shorting the windings,

The funtion of resistance in the primary circuit, whether an external ballast resistor, or extra windings in the coil's primary, is to limit average primary current to a level safe for the coil, and breaker points (or electronic ignition), typically in the 3 to 4 Amp range.

The reason for Pertronix to specify a coil with higher primary resistance for a 4-cylinder has to do with "dwell", (for this discussion,basically the % of time the points are closed).A 4-cylinder engine "fires" 2 cylinders per revolution, whereas a 6-cylinder fires 3, and an 8-cylinder fires 4. That means, for every revoltution of a 4-cylinder engine, the breaker points open (for roughly 30 degrees of distributor rotation) one time less than a 6-cylinder, and 2 times less than an 8-cylinder. This results in higher average primary current, and more heating of the Pertronix unit and coil. So, to be safe, they require a coil with a bit more resistance for the 4-cylinders.

No, you can't measure the coil output voltage with a regular voltmeter.

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John T

11-22-2005 06:34:12




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 Re: Why does a coil blow? in reply to Bob, 11-22-2005 06:04:35  
Bob, I enjoyed your post. I had mine done n posted it before I read yours, but looks like were on the same page, thay say great minds think alike lol hmmmmm mmmmm mmm

Take care now

John T



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