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Will straight pipe hurt motors??

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logan

10-13-2005 19:54:20

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Had some people tell me straight pipes are bad for motors, but why would they have let the old tractors out of the factory with straight pipes then??

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j meyer

10-16-2005 21:49:15

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

simply said, will it hurt the engine, NO!
will it hurt your ears, Yeah:)

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thejdman01

10-14-2005 18:06:39

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

back in the day i was told as far as straight pipes, take a pipe the same diameter as the manifolds and hook up a pipe to that. take a wax pencil and put marks on it various incriments every inch or so. where the exhaust is NOT hot enough to melt the eax is where you need to cut it. thats the rule i was told back in the day

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Leroy

10-14-2005 17:04:43

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

I will tell you what that strait pipe will hurt and that is your EARS and think about why you wanted to run that pipe in a few years when you can NOT hear and hearing aids will not work for you!

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txgrn

10-14-2005 16:11:17

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For you disbelieving purists in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

Take a 3 cylinder Ford diesel ('65 up) and restrict the exhaust. Then try to put the rpm's to governor limit; about 2150 per the book.

Can't do it. Engine sputters and pukes white smoke and drops down in rpm's.

Take the restrictive exhaust off (like a straight pipe) and she will purr at 2200.

BTDT.

So you guys blowing off, go back to school, or shut her down. You don't know what you're talking about..... ..... ..... ..... ...pffffft.

Mark

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Logan

10-14-2005 14:01:39

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

I pull at a local pull once a year with my MH 33, and plow a little with it. last year it had a muffler on durring the pull and this year i ran a straight pipe on it and did a little better than last year. About the cold air rushing in, the straight pipe and manifold are about the same temp as the motor...i mean ENGINE....am i right? and on the muffler that is for the tractor, you look down it and can see straight through it with just little things sticking out into the hole so that would be sure to still let the cold air rush in. Plus, the manifold has those sharp turns that restrict air to go out smooth, so it shouldnt let the cold air rush back in. Thats my opinion on the whole situation.

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Mike M

10-14-2005 09:46:01

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

I run straight pipes ( conduit )to all my "MOTORS" it works very well at protecting the wires from damage. Straight pipes on "ENGINES" doesn't seem to hurt them. Doubt they are of much help either,justs sounds like they are.I've heard that if you have them real short to cap them on shut down to keep cold air from rushing back in and warping valves.I've seen some of the pullers do this and that's what they tell me.

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Steve Crum

10-14-2005 06:07:20

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

I've built literally hundreds of these systems in as many configurations. In the process I've also busted a lot of myths. One of the most important considerations in and exhaust systen on a normally aspirated engine is out flow velocity. This often goes against the mind set of the bigger the system the better it will flow. Wrong!
An exhaust must be configured to maximize the scavenge effect on the cylinders so as one cylinder is not trying to "ram" it's exhaust charge into that of the previous cylinder whose charge has stalled in the manifold by restictive back pressure or by losing it's velocity in too large of a tube. Either way the engine's volumetric efficency suffers dearly and the engine's performance follow suit. As far as danger to valves, the most danger comes from a poorly planned system (or no system) that allows an inrush of cold air onto the valves at shutdown of the engine. Mechanically aspirated engines twist these rules all around, but the same basic principles apply.
This isn't rocket science, but is a little more complicated than it first appears.

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txgrn

10-14-2005 06:30:28

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-14-2005 06:07:20

What rpm's are your designs running? I can understand it in high rpm applications (where valves are airborne most of the time) or in the case of 2 cycle engines, tuned exhaust is paramount, but for a 2000 rpm 4 cycle farm diesel (where the valves are on the seat most of the time)? I agree with the restriction problem you mentioned, but not the stalling.

With my old 1 7/8 inch pipe, even at idle there was a steady flow of exhaust out the pipe. With the large pipe I can run to 2000 and still feel the pulsations (with my hand over the pipe) as each cylinder fires and dumps it's gas. Can't tell me that the former was better. Besides I get better performance and a cooler running engine which is why I changed in the first place.

Now if I were building 8000 rpm race cars I would go to California and talk to the Heddon or other knowledgeable folks about exhaust scavenging, headers, and the rest of the outflow system.

Mark

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Steve Crum

10-14-2005 08:46:58

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:30:28

When you state a 1 7/8" pipe I'm assuming you are refering to a B or similar sized 2 cylinder tractor. The 'pulsation' you mention is indictive of respectable scavenging as long as the duration of the low pressure side of the pulse is not in the negative side of the pressure wave. Flow tests on my own stock B demonstrated that a 1 7/8" stock sized tube although flowing respectably still maintained a degree of steady back pressure at the exhaust ports, and a oversized 2 1/2" tube tested excessive backflow or reversion at the ports. Both these conditions tend to promote "flow stalling" or lost velocity of the outflow of exhaust gases from the cylinder thus screwing volumetric efficency, driving up engine temperature, and driving down potential power. The best flowing tube I've tested on one of these B sized engines that seems to strike a balance between too much and not enough is 2.0".
Quite frankly put, if you cannot get as much of the burn't gases out of the cylinder as possable in the split second it has to do so, the incoming charge of fresh air/fuel cannot be so fast incoming in it's own split second. Picture yourself walking out of an auditorium into a crowded foyer, you can move but not real fast, but if people are moving out thru the foyer in an orderly fashion you move right along. If the foyer is empty, people tend to slow down in their pace.
I won't even pull out my notebook on cam timing and overlaps or intake designs. But I have quite a list of customers that wanted their pipes painted black so as not to draw too much attention to them. (pullers are just as secretive as NASCAR in what they do to their machines.)

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txgrn

10-14-2005 16:02:48

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Steve Crum, 10-14-2005 08:46:58

No sir I'm talking about a 404 cu in 6 cyl 100 PTO hp tractor.

Mark

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Mark - IN.

10-14-2005 05:13:29

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

Yes, no, and maybe. First off, it's not back pressure that prevents valves from floating, it's spring pressure. The weaker the spring, the better the chances of valves floating at higher RPMs. The stronger the spring, the less chance, but the more wear and tear on the rest of the valve train (cam lobes, fulcroms, etc). Back pressure actually keeps the face and back of the valve at a more even temperature, which lack of can cause failure. Too little back pressure over time and will notice damage caused because the face of the valve is typically hotter than the backside exhausting the burnt gases into a cooler manifold, header runner, etc.

As far as adding horse power, that can be true under the right conditions. Runner length and diameter directly affect both horse power and torgue. I can't count the number of times I've seen headers or open exhaust on an engine show a decrease of either horse power, torque, or both because the diameters were too large, the lengths were too short, or too long, or a combination of both. Chances are you're going to want to run a longer pipe because your engine is a lower RPM engine, and torque is what you're after. Is your engine normally aspirated? Turbo charged? What's your cam lift? It's duration? Straight pipes can be good, under the right conditions. They can be just as bad if aren't tuned to the needs of the engine, which should be tuned to your needs.

The answer to your question as posed is yes, no, and maybe.

Mark

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txgrn

10-14-2005 06:01:38

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Mark - IN., 10-14-2005 05:13:29

I think you hit upon it when you said low rpm's. The rest of the story is being diesel.

Turbo's come naturally with large dia. pipes as the rig runs hot without it. Never saw a farm diesel that didn't run better with more room to breathe. Did it to mine (naturally aspired) and she runs great and cooler under load. Added benefit was that the chrome pipe looks good sitting up there in front of the "Soundguard" cab. Grin (wear ear plugs too, but that's ok)

Mark

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Mark - IN.

10-14-2005 20:29:08

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:01:38

Hey ya Mark, good to hear from you. Hope all is well in Texas. Been quiet from there.

I agree with you on the deisel 100%. Short and fat and scavenge (dump). Is why GM put roots type blowers on the exhaust side of their deisels long before turbos even existed to put on the intake side. And long before anyone realized if reverse the gearing in a roots blower, stick it on top of a top fuel or alcohol engine, can use it's exhaust as intake (reverse the air flow), and use it to boost the pressure into the cylinders and run a 1/4 mile in 4 seconds. Fun, fun, fun.

Idea setup for a deisel is a turbo blowing in, and a roots sucking out, no pipe. But makes the everything black with soot, so nice overly fat chrome pipe, no muffler to restrict. Same for naturally aspirated, short, fat, even better if none and don't mind a blackened face. Gasoline is different - gain torque with longer, smaller diameter pipes to a point. But has to be tuned for the needs, which no one can do by saying "looks good, sounds good, must be at least 2 more HP". Might be +2. Might be +5. Might be -10. Statistically, the latter happens the most when dyno'd.

Great to hear from you Mark. Been busy, huh? Is that time of year.

Mark

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Bus Driver

10-15-2005 05:51:37

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Mark - IN., 10-14-2005 20:29:08

On the two-cycle Diesels, the Roots blower is on the intake side. It is a vital part of the engine operation in that it provides the combustion air. The engine will not work without it. I suspect that a Roots type blower would quickly be destroyed if used on the exhaust system.

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Mark - IN.

10-15-2005 22:17:17

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-15-2005 05:51:37

Actually, if locate photos of a Detroit Diesel I4 (for example), will see it mounted to the side of the engine on the exhaust. That part that the top fuelers mount their injectors too, was actually the exhaust out to the mufflers and stacks. No, the GM blower (roots) got it's start scavenging exhuast from diesels. It was a drag racer, think Garlits that played with one and found out that if reversed the gears and air flow, the exhaust part of the roots becomes the inlet, and what used to be the inlet, becomes the base, or outlet into the manifold of their top fuelers. The roots blowers made for top fuelers made by Moonyham and the others have become made of aluminum to save weight and since are intake as part of top fuelers, don't heat up like the original cast iron, much heavier GM blowers originally used. The roots blowers used on those Detroit Diesels were for exhaust scavenging. Take apart an old GM blower from a diesel, and will find it full of black soot.

Mark

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Jerry/MT

10-14-2005 14:07:12

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:01:38

The reason it run's cooler Mark, is that your fuel/air ratio is lower at any rpm because your airflow is up at any rpm. So you're running cooler but your power is also down. If you dial the fuel up to the same fuel air ratio you initially had you'll have more power and your temperature will come back to what it originally was.

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Mark - IN.

10-14-2005 20:04:51

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-14-2005 14:07:12

You're correct on richening to a point. Richer typically will run cooler, however too much richening will burn unburnt gasses into the exhaust runners, hence the gold or bluing of the pipe. That can be bad too, if over done. When running an air cooled, instead of idling non-stop, is better to pop the throttle occasionally because that instant short reflux of cool gas into the cylinder actually provides a momentary cooling. When I pop the hog at an intersection on a hot day, not trying to show off or drive the folks ears nuts, just trying to keep a 97" shovel from seizing and having to put another $5K into the motor. Been there, done that. Besides, S&S backs me on that one.

I hear guys talking about the racers do this, and the racers do that, but those are very expensive throw away engines from an aspect of at least tearing them down and rebuilding per run (drags) or race (oval). Not too many folks gonna do that to the old A, Jubilee, etc. I think some are confusing what they think optimum is, with reliability.

Mark

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txgrn

10-14-2005 16:06:22

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-14-2005 14:07:12

Ok Jerry, if you say so. JD 404 engine on two different models. That's funny, turbo's drive in more air. Injector shoots same amount of fuel (4230 naturally aspired vs 4430 turbo). Turbo turns out 125 pto hp where nat asp turns out 100 hp. Turbo has 3+ dia pipe, nat asp has 1 7/8 pipe. Don't see your reasoning.

Mark

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Jerry/MT

10-15-2005 19:39:56

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 16:06:22

I was speaking of a naturally aspirated engine but the same is true of a turboed engine. The reason for the bigger exhaust pipe on the turbocharged engine is more airflow (and possibly higher EGT's) due to the T/C. You'll also higher fuel flows on a turbo. You don't get that horsepower increase for free. Turbo's give more horsepower at a given engine displacement but require some design changes to take the higher pressures, temperatures, and internal loads.

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txgrn

10-16-2005 15:24:29

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-15-2005 19:39:56

Like what?.....other than exhaust pipe/muffler size. Neighbor 1/2 mile up the road has the 4430. I have the 4230. Easy to set them side by side if it matters.

Mark

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Mike Van

10-14-2005 01:15:19

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

Some good answers, but here's another question - As far as HP goes, why would the racing boys spend $$$$$$$$ on headers, etc. if just straight pipe is better? Then theres the racing 2 strokes with the tuned exhaust pipes? Got to be a reason.

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Jerry/MT

10-14-2005 13:56:39

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Mike Van , 10-14-2005 01:15:19

It depends what kind of racing you're talking about. The top fuel drag racers and funny cars use zoomies, straight pipes right of each cylinder. I believe the NASCAR guys use tuned headers that are matched to the high speeds they run. By having the correct length to diameter ratio exhaust system you can increase the through flow of the engine within a narrow speed range and get more power. It has to do with expansion waves being at the exhaust port when the exhaust valve opens. The question asked here was what would happen if a straight pipe was added t the exhaust i.e. no muffler.

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onefarmer

10-14-2005 04:02:36

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Mike Van , 10-14-2005 01:15:19

Headers is a straight pipe. Actually what straight pipe refers to is the exhaust pipe that comes after the manifold whether cast iron or tube headers. What headers do is make a smoothflow for the exhaust. No sharp turns like with a cast iron manifold. Also in racing they are "tuned" meaning a certain diameter tubes at a certain length proven by testing to be optimum for the rpms and flow of the engine for maximum HP. If an engines mainly run at 4000 to 8000 rpm it would require a different size tubing for best scavenging of the exhaust than say an engine running 1000 to 3000 like your daily driver.

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onefarmer

10-14-2005 04:09:25

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to onefarmer, 10-14-2005 04:02:36

Shouldn't need to worry about a straight pipe hurting an engine as long as it has an exhaust manifold of some kind like most cars and tractors do.

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Jerry/MT

10-13-2005 21:33:17

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

They'll probably hurt your ears more than the motor! The only time I would think the exhaust system will affect a gas engine is at wide open throttle operation. Then you'll get a little more air through the engine (and more power) and depending on your carburetor performance, you might lean out the mixture and that could cause some excessive temperature on the exhaust valves. But very few of us run at wide open throttle and if so not for very long. On a diesel, I think it would cause you to run with a smaller fuel/air ratio at all rpms and that means you'd loose some power.

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Galen

10-14-2005 05:32:59

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-13-2005 21:33:17

BIL put straight pipes on his Dodge Cummins he used to have. You couldn't stand to be behind him (any closer than about 6 car lengths). The fumes were killer. His MPG and performance suffered.

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Logan

10-15-2005 15:16:50

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Galen, 10-14-2005 05:32:59

On our old 96' dodge cummins we had straight pipe on it for as long as we had it, about 6 er 7 years and never had problems with exsesive fumes or any other thing except being loud. Uncle and i know a few other guys who run pipes also.

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txgrn

10-14-2005 06:32:37

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Galen, 10-14-2005 05:32:59

Cummins uses a turbo which requires a large pipe and other scavenging techniques to make it function; unlike naturally aspired engines.

Mark

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Galen

10-14-2005 06:52:58

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:32:37

Yeah, I know. But you can't tell my BIL anything! I was glad to see he totaled it (not glad to see him have a wreck, just glad the truck is gone).

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jfp

10-13-2005 20:55:48

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

Tractor engines don't turn as fast as car engines. A V8 with no muffler will soon burn up because at higher RPM the valves tend to "float" and need a back pressure for compression reasons. Same is true with a small lawn mower engine, no muffler no compression. Tractors turn slow enough for the valves to get completely closed instead of "floating" and that keeps compression which is power. I still would not run with no muffler even though it was done so for years on a WD that I grew up on. I'm not to good at explaining things but hope this helps.

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kyhayman

10-13-2005 20:50:15

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

I dont know many (actually any, but Im sure there are) that came out with no muffler. I've seen damage with running straight off the block, no manifold or anything. Other than that the only sure damage I know of is that ringing in my ears.

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Hurst

10-14-2005 20:18:48

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to kyhayman, 10-13-2005 20:50:15

Allis sent a few off the line with straight pipes from the factory. If I remember correctly, the D19 Turbo diesel, and the 190xt turbo are the only two I know of. I belive the 190 and 190xt gassers had a straight pipe too, but not for sure.

Hurst

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txgrn

10-14-2005 05:15:05

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to kyhayman, 10-13-2005 20:50:15

The damage you refer to that I have seen was caused by cold air hitting hot valves..... something that doesn't happen with a pipe or muffler installed. I have a 3+ inch 48 inch long pipe on my JD 4230 and she breathes easy. No I don't pull with it. Just didn't like the restrictive pipe from OEM.

Mark

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old

10-13-2005 20:41:37

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

As long as its long enough to keep cool/cold air from getting to the valves its ok other then your ears. It might evn add a HP or 2

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wayne2

10-13-2005 20:49:07

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to old, 10-13-2005 20:41:37

Tore the exhaust out from under my Model A back in 67, the flange was still good-so cut er off went to muf shophad em expand a new pipe boltred it on hung it with bailing wire-still holding togeather!!!

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wayne2

10-13-2005 20:48:50

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to old, 10-13-2005 20:41:37

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PoppinJohn720

10-13-2005 20:46:49

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to old, 10-13-2005 20:41:37

Yes Old you said it right I agree with you.

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old

10-13-2005 21:04:49

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to PoppinJohn720, 10-13-2005 20:46:49

Most of my tractors have stright pipes for to reasons. One it cost less and 2 it adds a HP or two. Plus I like to open them up a little if it has 2 inch going out I go up to 2-1/2 or 3 and that makes them bark LOL

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John T

10-13-2005 20:08:28

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

Logan, what the big boys down at the pool hall always told me was if there wasnt much of any exhaust pipe, the valves experienced too rapid of a cool down when a hot engine was suddenly shut off. HOWEVER depending on the heat mass and heat transfer and all that other thermodynamics mumbo jumbo, that may not hold true in a tracotr that was designed for almost wide open exhaust systems. Theres something else about exhaust systems which involves air flow and turbulence and how maybe a pipe might tune the system so exhaust actually flows out better??

Im an electrical engineer who almost flunked thermodynamcis, lets ask a mechanical type person who knowns that and fluid mechanics n turbulence etc etc??

Sorry no help, but still an interestin topic, I look forward to what the mechanics have to say

John T

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PoppinJohn720

10-13-2005 20:03:29

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to logan, 10-13-2005 19:54:20

No; straight pipes wont hurt a thing except your ears after running one of these old tractors for a period of time. Keep stack covered when engine is not running to keep out dirt etc... I like to hear these old tractors talk loud and proud. Why buzz when you can Thunder? LOL!

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Harley

10-14-2005 08:31:53

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to PoppinJohn720, 10-13-2005 20:03:29

So if what I'm hearing is correct, I can go ahead and run my 1940 stock M motor at about 8000 rpms with a straight stainless steel pipe and not hurt it any? Thanks, Harley

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PoppinJohn720

10-14-2005 20:59:56

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Harley, 10-14-2005 08:31:53

No, youve been listening to too much straight pipe! 8000 rpm will slightly exceed specs however it would probably sound real mean just be fore disaster strikes. LOL!

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jfp

10-14-2005 14:44:23

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Re: Will straight pipe hurt motors?? in reply to Harley, 10-14-2005 08:31:53

Take that blower off that M before you blow something up.

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