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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

46 case vac wont start, please help

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carig

10-11-2005 14:47:44




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i have a 46 case vac that wont start. it ran 2 weeks ago and i went to start it today and it wont start.i checked for spark and there is no spark. i used a test light and tested the coil on both battery side and distributor side and have juice on both. also probed points and have juice there too.points are properly gapped as well as the plugs. im thinking a bad coil. are all coils the same ??? 6 volt 12 volt ?
any help would be appreciated . thank you in advance

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Cases n Harleys

10-11-2005 18:48:33




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
I will have to agree with Delbert from Lincoln,and John T. I have a 1951 vai that drove Me nuts everytime it rained or dew fell, but all I had to do was scuff the points a little and she was ready for work. I solved that problem by installing a new set of points & setting the proper gap. Jim



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Cases n Harleys

10-11-2005 18:46:33




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
I will have to agree with Delbert from Lincoln,and John T. I have a 1951 vai that drove Me nuts everytime it rained or dew fell, but all I had to do was scuff the points a little and she was ready for work. I solved that problem by installing a new set of points & setting the proper gap. Jim



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Delbert from Lincoln

10-11-2005 17:20:27




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
If I were trying to trouble shoot it I"d take a long hard look at the points. Sometimes when a vehicle sets a while, and then won"t start, It will have a coating or oxidation on the points. Sounds like this may be what yours has done. The coating on the points acting as an insulator would explain why you got voltage on the distibutor wire. Try a insulated screwdriver tip between the two halves of the points. If you get a spark, clean up the points. Point file, fine emery cloth or most anything will work to get running, but plan to replace the points soon.

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Delbert from Lincoln

10-11-2005 17:20:36




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
If I were trying to trouble shoot it I"d take a long hard look at the points. Sometimes when a vehicle sets a while, and then won"t start, It will have a coating or oxidation on the points. Sounds like this may be what yours has done. The coating on the points acting as an insulator would explain why you got voltage on the distibutor wire. Try a insulated screwdriver tip between the two halves of the points. If you get a spark, clean up the points. Point file, fine emery cloth or most anything will work to get running, but plan to replace the points soon.

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John T

10-11-2005 16:46:20




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
Carig, There should normally be NO VOLTAGE on the side of the coil leading to the distributor, cuz the points are normally closed which takes that point to zero volts. As the engine is cranked over slowly, a test lamp there should flash ON when points are open (thats when coil fires) and be OFF when they are closed. They are usually closed cuz they only open when the pistons are at TDC and its hard to stop the engine in that exact position cuz of the compression.

ALSO if there is voltage on the coils low (to distributor) terminal, that tells me at least the coils low voltage primary winding (between its lil + and - terminals) is good and I doubt if its a coil problem, even though the high voltage secondary could still be bad.

If there"s always voltage on the side of the coil to the distributor, its often cuz the points arent closing or are badly burned or all carboned up or else maybe the wire or a connection is bad/open from the coil to the distributor or the internal wiring inside the distributor to the points is open or mis connected.

CHECK THE WIRE AND CONNECTIONS ON THE COIL AND DISTRIBUTOR AND INSIDE THE DISTRIBUTOR OVER TO THE POINTS AND CHECK THE POINTS FOR FULLY CLOSING AND NOT ALL BURNED OR CARBONED !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!

This may be more then you need, but I will paste in my Standard Troubleshooting Procedure for no fire on a coil ignition, much of which is a repeat of the above::::::::::::


TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!! !!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.

MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK

1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,, ,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.

2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source attached to the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test. 3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,, ,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,, ,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,, ,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,, ,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,, ,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,, ,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,, ,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,, ,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,, ,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,, ,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,, ,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are baddddd ddddd . Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

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Nebraska Cowman

10-11-2005 16:05:29




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to carig, 10-11-2005 14:47:44  
I doubt it. Coils seldom fail. Dirty points are much more likely to cause trouble. with the cap off there should be a good blue spark off the coil primary wire, (the wire that goes to the center of the distributor cap) when you manualy open the points. If you have fire that far then the trouble is either in the cap, wires, or plugs, maybe the rotor.



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Martini

10-12-2005 06:17:09




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 10-11-2005 16:05:29  
Believe me, on my 49 VA the points developed
a short leaving no spark at the plugs.
Its an inexpensive fix to just swap them out
for a new set! I think it was 4 bucks at NAPA.



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carig

10-15-2005 11:40:17




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 Re: 46 case vac wont start, please help in reply to Martini, 10-12-2005 06:17:09  
well i got her to fire up today after cleaning the plugs and points and priming some gas in the plug holes and buying a new battery but now all she wants to do is fart and skip and bog out when i hit the pedal. tried turning the distributor both ways and it didnt help. its got a zeinith carb and the mixture screw on the bottom keeps spinning all over the place and it will not stay set where i put it . does anybody have an idea what a base setting for the air fuel mixture should be at. also this is gonna make me sound stupid but what is the importance of having oil in the air filter/oil bath unit and what type of oil should i use? please dont yell at me im only young and am learning as we go here. could anybody point me in the direction of useful tune up information/procedures on this old girl . thank you in advance

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