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OT: taxes on small farm

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Marcuss

10-07-2005 09:50:43




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Hi, (I know to contact an accountant, but want to see if there is any practical experience out there)
I farm 10 acres for profit and also work off farm making $36,000 per year. Farm brings in $1500/yr. So total income is $37,500.
If I build a pole-barn for storing farm machinery for $20,000...can I deduct the entire $20,000 from my income of $37,500.
Thanks!




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kyhayman

10-07-2005 17:10:46




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
Good advice about using a CPA, thats what I preach, regularly. As far as audits go, I've had 2 one in a year when I made money and did my own taxes (ended up owing $1.27 plus interest and penalty) other year I lost money on the farm and did my own taxes and didnt owe any more or get any money back. Since 1996 I've had a CPA do my taxes, she never, ever fails to get me a significant refund (always over $5K, sometimes over $10K). The size of the refund doesnt necessarily trigger an audit, it is your money after all, all a refund means is you let them use more of it than you had to for free. For me, it works better to have them withhold for 0 dependents even though I could claim 3 plus I pay in extra (several of my largest customers pay on an irregular basis, this year I collect 2 years worth of back hay bills from one of them) so my farm income may fluctuate wildly. What you have to watch is making sure you make money or a make a reasonable attempt to make money (for me its almost always capital gains).

The short answer on your building question is it appears to be depreciable property, multi use, 20 year class life. CPA can set up the best method to depreciate it. I messed up 25 years ago when I did my own taxes and 'took a 1 time irrevocable election to use straight line'.

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Hermit

10-07-2005 13:41:47




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
Another thing to remember is property taxes. Depending on where you live, your property value may be reassessed to a higher amount, raising your property taxes. Also, it may cost big bucks to get a building permit, depending how bad your local government needs the money.



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paul

10-07-2005 12:36:47




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
In general, farm expenses work like this:

Short term expenses are fully deductable 'this' year. Seed, fuel, rent, etc.

Mid term expenses, such as equipment, tractors, large tools, portable buildings, etc. are expensed over 3-7 years life expectancy. That means you deduct perhaps 1/7 of the cost every year for the next 7 years.

Long term assets, such as land, buildings, tile, etc. are considered long term expenses and are deducted over a 20 year (more or less) time period. Your machine shed would fall into this catagory, & will offer you tax savings over a 20 year period. You cannot deduct these capitol assets all in one year - no way.

Now, as your short term, mid term, and long term deductions can quickly become more expenses than the small farm can generate, be very careful that you do not trigger yourself into a hobby status, and no deductions at all will be allowed. Generally you need to turn a real profit 2 of 5 years to keep your farm status. However there is grey area, & if the IRS flags you, it is up to you to prove you are a 'real farm for real profit'.

If your shed saves you $1000 a year on taxes, your farm income drops to $500 a year. Any other perchases, or a couple bad years - and you fall into the hobby class. Be careful of this.

I'm just a simple dirt farmer, so obviously as you say, talk with your tax person. A good, farm-experienced CPA - not H&R or such. There are many creative ways to change the above, and to take bigger or smaller tax deductions, or to change your farm income by selling 2 year's of crops in one year, none in the next, etc. to keep IRS flags away from you - somewhat. But, the above is the basic framework that you have to work with.

I've made very little money farming, gaining assets rather than income, but as it is my sole job, the IRS looks at me differently. With you having so little farming, plus a 'real' job, they will look at you in a different light.

--->Paul

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supergrumpy

10-07-2005 13:22:23




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to paul, 10-07-2005 12:36:47  
I'm sitting here (allegedly) working on a tax return, the stuff I read here is a LOT more interesting

what you said sounds pretty much like I tell people every day

"facts and circumstances" can overcome the hobby loss rules



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Marcuss

10-07-2005 14:21:51




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to supergrumpy, 10-07-2005 13:22:23  
Supergrumpy...please explain what you mean by "facts and circumstances".

Thanks!



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James2

10-07-2005 22:30:02




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 14:21:51  
The key is you must have a plan or are trying to show a profit. The 2 out of 5 years Paul mentioned are only IRS guidlines and can be "beaten" if you are truly trying to be profitable. I know one fellow at work, whom has never shown a profit in 20 years. He did eventually get audited, but passed. An example which could get you in trouble, would be to purchase a new $200,000 combine to only harvest your 10 acres. If you pull this trick, you better have at least a couple thousand acres you are custom harvesting. Based on my experience, Paul's correct in stating you would write the building off in around 20 years. I believe that is the time frame the accountant is using on my machine shed. There is also a 15 year depreciation. I'm not sure but it may be for livestock or grain bins. That's been my experience, perhaps Supergrumpy will shed some more light.

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supergrumpy

10-08-2005 08:46:59




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to James2, 10-07-2005 22:30:02  
I will give "facts and circumstances" a try

in my humble opinion as a tax preparer:

IRS has to interpret the wishes of Congress in enforcing the law, they issue guidelines and regulations by the bushel, put you right to sleep after full cup of coffee

if you clearly fall into these guidelines, you will clearly get that benefit or that tax bite, doing otherwise is illegal and/or not good for you

UNLESS", your facts and circumstances differ from the assumptions IRS used to develope said guidelines, maybe you have special circumstances that Congress wanted to protect when they wrote the law that IRS has to enforce

I will stop here

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dhermesc

10-07-2005 12:44:40




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to paul, 10-07-2005 12:36:47  
Paul has nailed it for the most part. One other aspect to consider - will the IRS audit you for losing $500 a year on a hobbie farm and deducting that amount on your taxes? Not likely, but the IRS will adjust your return and audit you if claim $5000 in loses.



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BobMo

10-07-2005 11:34:04




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
Don't take tax advice from this forum. What you have is a hobby farm and the IRS will look at very different than what people here may be telling you.



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Mike (WA)

10-07-2005 12:20:20




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to BobMo, 10-07-2005 11:34:04  
While you are correct to caution people about taking advice from people on the forum, in this case, the other posters gave good advice. Marcus would be well advised to talk to a CPA about the hobby farming situation. I will say, from my experience both personally and professionally, he will probably never have a problem with IRS given the numbers he supplied, especially if he shows a profit on the farm occasionally. If he shows a profit every year, then IRS will be happy to let him write off all reasonable and necessary farm expenses, including the depreciation on the barn.

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Nathan in Texas

10-07-2005 11:20:55




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
If you buy personal property (tractors, trucks, equipment, etc.) you can take a section 179 deduction and expense it right away. I don't think that applies to real property (buildings) though so you would depreciate it over the IRS life.

FWIW, Nathan



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JMS/MN

10-07-2005 13:46:54




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Nathan in Texas, 10-07-2005 11:20:55  
You are right about the Sec 179, expensing it in the year of purchase. I also don't know if it applies to real property, but it should be pointed out that expensing it is an option, but you lose the option of depreciation on the item. Cannot expense it now and depreciate it over time. It's one or the other, and you need to look ahead for expected fluctuation in income to determine which is the better path. Immediate large advantage now, or smaller annual advantage over the long term.

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JMS/MN

10-07-2005 13:49:10




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to JMS/MN, 10-07-2005 13:46:54  
Advantage of expensing an item comes in a year of a surge in income. I've used it a couple of times when selling a farmstead and some bare ground.



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bo

10-07-2005 10:40:05




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
If you declare the farm income and you build a pole barn, it's a depreciable asset. You'll need to look at the government spec for the expected life of the barn and then use a depreciating method. So...it's a capital expense and will reduce your income by the amount of the depreciation.



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Davis In SC

10-07-2005 18:08:59




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to bo, 10-07-2005 10:40:05  
Beware of the fact, that if you sell the farm, Items like that barn may be subject to "Recapture" , meaning you could have to pay back the money taken as a deduction...



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old

10-07-2005 10:21:10




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 Re: OT: taxes on small farm in reply to Marcuss, 10-07-2005 09:50:43  
The way I understand it is sort of yes and sort of no. It ends up being done over a 20 or 30 year time span. I.E. the life of the building.



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