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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long......

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NC Wayne

08-28-2005 20:02:05




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Hey guys, I'm a mechanic by trade and the furtherest thing you'll find from a farmer so this may sound like a stupid question/idea, but induldge me if you will and let me know what you think. I've read so many posts on here over the past couple of years concerning the cost of fertalizing the fields, etc etc. Keeping that in mind and seeing the kinds of things I routinely see working out in the field on construction equipment it got me thinking. The main reasons you put fertalizer out is to replentish the nutrients in the soil used by the crops, as well as to get more yield out of a given amount of land. I know there are farming "techniques" such as crop rotation, etc to make things a little more natural but why not take what nature does everyday, apply it to farming and take it a step further? Everytime a tree falls and rots, a plant dies and falls to the ground, an animal finds a good spot to 'do it's business', it's all about nature recycling it's resourses and taking care of itself by automatically replentishing what it takes away. When I was young Dad used to have a garden every year. We had one place in that garden where we dumped leaves, grass clippings, sawdust from the shop,etc. As the old saying goes that spot was "rich as a yard up a bulls a--". Everything planted there outgrew the other plants 4 to 1 or better. My question/idea is why couldn't this practice be used on a larger scale for farming? There's land being cleared everyday, with the trees being cut and run through chippers and tub grinders, people cut their grass and rake leaves all the time, heck lawncare is one of the biggest business out there nowdays. I've seen piles of wood chips from one site that would easily cover several acres, one lawn crew that cuts enough grass in a day to cover cover several more, and I'm sure there are enough chicken, hog, and beef farmers along with how many different zoos that could provide the "good stuff" that the wild animals would normally contribute. ...We worry about recycling plastic, paper, and all the other items of everyday life to "save the environment", why not recycle the environment itself. I'm always hearing about nitrogen run off and other chemicals from fertlizer polluting the rivers but this way all your using are natural items to fertalize just like Mother Nature does. As for the cost, somebody (the government) would probably find a way to muck it up, but to the normal person, namely me, it looks like it's be a good deal for all concerned. I very rarely see a chip pile that isn't free for the taking, (just get it out of the way, we'll load it for you). Many county landfills charge to take brush, leaves, etc, so I can't see anybody turning down a chance to give them away. As far as the animal waste most places have large amounts that they have to process and get rid of in a "small area" but if that 5000 gallons of waste were spread out over 1000 acres instead of 2, all of a sudden it's doing something good instead of simply "polluting". I know there would be alot of details to work out, and something like this it's quite as simple as I'm making it here, but as far as I know (remember I'm NOT a farmer) it's never even been tried. So who's to say without some thought and hard work it couldn't something like this couldn't be made into a reality? On the topic of new ideas, what about piping water? We can pipe a valuable commodity like oil from Alaska to wherever...now what's more valuable than water? The Eastern half of the US can be flooded and 10'underwater and the Western half in the middle of a drought but there's no way to get the excess water from one part of the country to the other. The government can spend billions of dollars trying to "find water on Mars" but has yet to do anything like this to take care of the water we already have here on Earth..... .Just my .02, I welcome ya'lls input be it good or bad.....

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NC Wayne

08-29-2005 19:14:00




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
Hey guys, thanks for the input. I knew that manure was being used to some, but not to the extent ya'll are telling me, that's good to know. As far as when and where it is being used the way I see it is if "city" people don't want to smell it and still ant to eat then they need to move back where they came from..... .. In the end it seem like it all comes down to what one post said, it would take so much cooperation between so many different groups to make large scale composting a reality that it'll never happen. That's one of the biggest problem with this country as a whole nowdays, everybody wants something, but many people have, for the most part, forgotten how to cooperate with others to get what they want. Thanks again for the replys.

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JMS/MN

08-29-2005 09:06:39




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
Livestock have been on American farms from the start, and no- ..it has not been piling up, unused, all these years. It has always been returned to the land. We do a better job of distribution now than years ago. Used to be the fields close to the barn got more manure than those far away, when tractors did not have cabs on them, and the bulk of the manure was spread in winter. Mega farms don't dump a big amount on a few acres. You mention 5000 gallons on a thousand acres instead of 2- I imagine you pulled those numbers out of a hat- but this is what is realistic: For years we handled liquid manure from our dairy- we injected it into the soil- no smell, etc. Goal was about 5000 gallons per acre, provided about 175-190 lbs N per acre, along with P and K. Samples were taken each time and analyzed for content, so we knew what was being applied. Needed no other fertilizer for the crop. About half of what is applied is utilized each year. Mega dairies have manure management plans, and before approval need long-term agreements with area farmers for land disposal of manure. Limits of material per acre per year. Organic fertilizer is fine, but plants can uptake only the inorganic form. Organic sources of NPK need to be converted into the inorganic form before the plant can utilize the nutrient.

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Sid

08-29-2005 17:11:17




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to JMS/MN, 08-29-2005 09:06:39  
I am confused. Please explain the process of organic turning into inorganic.



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JMS/MN

08-29-2005 18:12:25




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to Sid, 08-29-2005 17:11:17  
In the natural order of decomposition, what old Ma Nature does- as things rot- they change form. Plants can only uptake things that are rotted away into the inorganic form. Not a matter of conjecture- just proven science. Soils Class 101. Good example is if you have a really good corn crop- takes a big amount of N to rot the stalks. Low N means you will see 2-3 year old stalks in the field. Carbon is also involved.

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Sid

08-29-2005 19:54:01




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to JMS/MN, 08-29-2005 18:12:25  
Thanks,I knew that. I just wasn't thinking about nitrogen being an inorganic form.



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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

08-29-2005 06:08:24




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
The short answer is that all sawdust will grow is thistles.

The longer version is that wood celulose temporarily takes a great deal of available nitrogen from the soil in the decaying process. It makes the soil less fertile than it was before. Only plants which can tolerate a nitrogen shortage can grow in that environment.

Some types of wood are toxic to certain plants and animals. Black walnut, for example, is murder on tomato plants and horses. Cherry leaves, dried, are also poisonous to horses and children.

Ten years after a portable sawmill bandmill in one area of the farm, the grass has just returned to the sawdust piles.

If you want thistles and thorns, mulch with wood products.

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Bret4207

08-29-2005 03:53:40




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
It's a wonderful idea. Thing is it would take co-operation and would be suited to farms under maybe 100 acres tillable just because of the scale. Plus the fuel to collect and truck the waste material would be high now. In other words, if you were a real worker you could do it for yourself, but it's too labor intensive for most people. Read "Ten acres, enough" or any of John Seymours small farm books, or Louis Bromfield and you'll see how it works. Of course if fuel and regulations keep increasing then it may be more workable on smaller acreages assuming some sort of community involvment. Big idea really.

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JImmy King

08-29-2005 03:50:44




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
I guess the easyest way to answer this question is ask you would you rather spend $100 a week for food and have plenty or spend $300 and it be in short supply.



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Fawteen

08-29-2005 02:29:03




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to NC Wayne, 08-28-2005 20:02:05  
Essentially, you're talking about composting and/or using manure as fertilizer.

Spreading solid manure or injecting liquid manure is and always has been common practice. With increasingly oppressive EPA regulation and encroaching suburbia, it's harder and harder to do without attracting a lot of unwanted attention, but it does get done. There's also the question of phosphate runoff into streams/rivers/lakes etc.

Composting eliminates most of the objections, but is time and labor intensive. Doing it on a scale that would supply the needs of a modern mega-farm would be nearly impossible, and take up as much space as the farm itself.

Composting for veggie gardens and flowerbeds is another question entirely. I make about 5 to 7 yards of finished compost every year, and what little I don't use sells like hotcakes.

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JMS/MN

08-29-2005 18:30:27




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to Fawteen, 08-29-2005 02:29:03  
I agree with your comments about composting- makes a good product, but is labor and equipment intensive. Most average farms don't have the time/manpower, with just Mom, Pop, and the kids . Recent developoment in MN- manure digester on a 500 cow farm- they collect methane gas, power the farm with a methane-powered generator and have some electricity to sell. Currently developing methods for 100 cow dairies, to make it cost effective. Startup was largely from MN grants. MN leads the way in ethanol, biodiesel (real biodiesel=soybean power, not McDonald's grease!), wind power at Buffalo Ridge, dairy biogas, etc. We have been the co-op capital (dairy, grain, fuel, etc.) of the country since the '30s, now have 22 farmer-owned ethanol co-ops operating----- -when will the rest of the US catch up? Sure, we're a spit in the bucket compared to ADM and Cargill- but WE own it- not the mega-corp's. What is the real cost of fuel when you factor in our defense cost- and priceless lives-, and that is no slam against the President I voted for and support- but we can produce HERE, and still feed us with the residue of corn-based ethanol.

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JMS/MN

08-29-2005 18:46:50




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 Re: Farmin' question for ya'll, a little long.... in reply to JMS/MN, 08-29-2005 18:30:27  
Fawteen- regarding your third paragraph, about composting on mega dairies- I think they would be the most likely to benefit. Might need a fraction of an employee to operate the equipment- Ma and Pa don't have the time- Some of the mega guys develop a market for the composted material, especially if located near a metro area. We should have room for all options, as long as wastes are handled in a responsible manner. Our dairy started in '72 with 28 cows, went to 50 in '82, maxed at 75 cows, but settled in about 70 head. Early years we went with daily hauling, even in Mn winters, but since '85 it was liquid with a custom injector, even tho some neighbors went with aerial spraying (lost all the N with evap). We hosed/hauled up to 1 1/2 miles to cover all owned, and some rented land. The app fee was about equal to annual fertilizer cost on the corn ground, and most years the app was the primary tillage on those acres. Over the years, manure application- at least around here, is much improved, and the big guys are the most controlled. Some of the little guys are the most careless- springtime dumping near streams, etc.

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