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PTO types

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Jim in NH

08-23-2005 17:01:34

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Can anybody tell me the difference between...

Live, Independant, Dry clutch, wet clutch PTO's?

The terms seem to be used so loosely, I'm not sure people, even dealers, always knowing what they are talking about, and I want to be sure I know the sublties as far which types require clutching, and which can be engaged or disengaged on the fly without clutching.

Thanks,
Jim

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Mike Van

08-24-2005 02:50:38

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

Thanks all, i've always heard live & IPTO called the same - Learned something -

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paul

08-23-2005 20:04:34

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

You are correct - not even dealers get it right. Don't believe what you hear from them either.

Live (aka 2-stage) uses the foot pedal to control both clutches, so you can stop driving, change gears, etc. without affecting your pto operation. However to put the pto into gear you need to step the foot pedal all the way down, so this will affect the tranny of course.

Independent has a completely seperate lever operating the pto clutch all by itself. It is totally seperate, or independent from, the tranny operation. you can shift either tranny or pto in or out of gear at any time without affecting the other one.

Some independent ptos are operated by hydraulic pressure, and they can be more like a light switch - the pto is instant on, instant off (with pto brake) and are rather jerky & hard on the drive train parts.

Older ones are just a rather long hand lever, & you can feather the pto on & off without the sudden jerk to the system.

Wet & dry was well explained, only a difference of what envoirnment the pto clutch pac runs in.

There are times I prefer the tractors with live (2 stage) pto over the independent ones, like for post hole diggers, sprayer operation, and other jobs. Tho an independent pto is generally a bit better overall.

--->Paul

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Rod F.

08-23-2005 19:25:29

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

Non live or transmission PTO is just that... the PTO is driven off the transmission.
Live PTO uses a 2 stage clutch, and is free of the transmission. However, it's not free of the clutch. The first stage stops the tractor, second stage stops the PTO. Live PTO can not be shifted on the go. Tractor will be stopped, or at least not under power.
Independant PTO is just that. Completly, fully indepandant and separate from the transmission and clutch. Most systems use a drive hub on the rear side of the pressure plate which drives a shaft completly through the transmission, and has a clutch behind the transmission to control the PTO. This system can be shifted any time on the fly.
Ford, and most others used a hydraulically actuated, multiplate wet clutch to drive the PTO. It works on much the same principle as the clutches in your car's automatic transmission. Some, like Fiat used a dry plate clutch for the indepandant PTO, but most Ind. PTO's were wet. Wet clutches are generally considered to be more durable and longer lasting, combined with being more compact relative to their power transfer ability. Dry clutches are cheaper to make and repair, but generally won't have the service life.
The bottom line is that if it requires using the clutch, it's not indepandant. Indepandant is, by far, the most desirable PTO to have. Followed by LIVE. I just wouldn't have a non live PTO on a tractor. Confused or what?

Rod

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KEH

08-23-2005 18:15:31

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

Jim, Live power to me means a system like those in MF 35 up to the last year or two small-medium MFs. With the clutch all the way down, engage the PTO lever. The clutch is two stage. Let the clutch out half way and the PTO turns. Put transmission in gear, let clutch the rest of the way out, the tractor moves and the PTO continues to turn. Reverse process to stop tractor and implement. Clutch plate has a lining on both sides. Costs more to rebuild, but is simple and usually trouble free. Many other tractors have this system, which can be checked by depressing clutch pedal ans feeling the two stages with motor off. Independent PTO means having a separate clutch pack operated by a separate lever. Oliver-Cockshutt were the first with this, I think, sometime in the 1940s. To engage PTO, simply move the separate lever. IMO this is MUCH better than live in most applications. Variations on this system include hydraulic clutch pack(Some JD, Ford 4000 up) and electric switch(which I assume is a solenoid switch) A hybrid version is found on Fiat designed tractors (Long, some Olivers and Whites) In this system, a separate hand lever is used to operate the two faced clutch instead of a two stage foot clutch. Deutz used a variation of this system also. Not qualified to discuss wet or dry clutchs. Hope this helps.

KEH

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Mike Van

08-23-2005 17:47:32

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

Live & independant mean you can engage the pto whenever you want, moving, working, etc. without having to stop the tractor. Lots of older models, the pto could only be engaged by stopping, pushing in the clutch, pulling the pto handle, then going. I don't know dry/wet but someone must.

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paul

08-23-2005 19:49:54

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Re: PTO types in reply to Mike Van , 08-23-2005 17:47:32

Nope.

Live you often use the foot pedal to operate the pto clutch, & there for have to stop the tractor moving to shift the pto into gear. The tranny clutch is operated at 1/2 of pedal movement, pto clutch is operated at full pedal depression.

So you are close, but not quite right.

--->Paul

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Nebraska Cowman

08-23-2005 17:08:09

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jim in NH, 08-23-2005 17:01:34

"Independant" should mean as much but i wouldn't count on it. "live" is a pretty loose term. If you are interested in a tractor have the dealer show you how to operate it, only then will you know for sure.

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Jon Hagen

08-23-2005 18:16:35

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Re: PTO types in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 08-23-2005 17:08:09

Live usually means the pto has it's own clutch and control lever which does not rely on drive clutch or trans motion.
Independent is like live pto except pto motion is usually controlled by the drive clutch pedal(half way up engages the pto clutch,all the way up engages the tractor transmission and moves the tractor. Atleast thats how it was explaned to me. Wet clutch means the pto clutch runs in oil,dry does not.

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Jon Hagen

08-23-2005 19:18:45

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jon Hagen, 08-23-2005 18:16:35

I stand corrected,thanks John.

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john in la

08-23-2005 19:04:02

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Re: PTO types in reply to Jon Hagen, 08-23-2005 18:16:35

Jon;
I think you have live and independent backwards.

Live PTO has a double clutch disc for the trans. The trans input shaft has on shaft inside the other. The outer shaft is hooked to one clutch plate and the inner shaft is hooked to the other clutch plate. You can NOT stop the pto with out stopping the tractor because they both use the same clutch pedal.
You can stop the tractor with out stopping the pto if you only push down the clutch pedal half way disengaging only one clutch disc.

Independent PTO has nothing to do with the drive clutch. The pto is operated by its own separate clutch.

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