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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long)

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Darren in TN

08-02-2005 12:50:21




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Hey, y'all.

I have a Ferguson TO-30 torn down in my shop right now and need some advice on assessing sleeves. I bought this tractor from a fellow who thought it had broken rings. Anyway, when I pulled the engine apart I found that the rings on three cylinders (the three that were burning oil badly) had about 0.125" end gap and about 0.1" clearance in the ring gap. Clearly not even close to correct. It looks to me like someone re-ringed it without using the correct rings-- the rings aren't worn or broken, just the wrong size! Well, the pistons look fine and the cylinder sleeves look pretty good to me. According to my measurements, they are brand new overbore sleeves and pistons. One has a chip out of the bottom of the sleeve, but it is well below where the sleeve exits the block above the crank. Would y'all reuse these sleeves, and what else would you look at besides micrometer bore measurements to decide whether you'd replace them?

Thanks a million,
Darren

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Earl-IL

08-02-2005 18:15:38




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to Darren in TN, 08-02-2005 12:50:21  
Darren, When looking at my ring catalog I find several different overbore and several different ring width combination. What is the bore and what is the ring groove width of your pistons starting at the top? How many comp. rings, how many oil rings? 3.1/4 bore 3.5/16 bore 3.3/8.. measure the skirt of the piston 90 deg to the pin. not the ring land area. Get back and I can tell you what ring set you need to order from your supplier. Earl In Illinois

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Darren in TN

08-02-2005 12:51:24




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to Darren in TN, 08-02-2005 12:50:21  

"about 0.1" clearance in the ring gap." <-- this should read 0.1" clearance in the ring GROOVE. Sorry, guys.



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RAB

08-02-2005 13:12:12




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to Darren in TN, 08-02-2005 12:51:24  
Darren,
I think you need to try again if you are measuring the side gap between ring and groove.
If you mean "one thou" - OK
If you mean "10 Thou"(0.01") - too slack, pistons may need attention and rings may well "oil pump"
If you mean "100 thou" ( 0.1"), Boy oh boy, there is your problem, and what other damage has been done!
Regards, RAB



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Darren in TN

08-02-2005 14:07:15




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to RAB, 08-02-2005 13:12:12  

RAB, Ferguson's manual states .007" maximum clearance between ring and groove, I measure approximately 0.1" (my feeler gage doesn't go that high, so I'm estimating, but it certainly isn't any less than 0.1"-- not a type-- I laughed out loud when I pulled those pistons, after first gasping). I haven't measured the gaps themselves yet, though I imagine if it was run for any length of time those grooves are galled to heck and back. I'll look at that tonight. The sleeves, though, honestly look and measure good.

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RAB

08-03-2005 00:31:49




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to Darren in TN, 08-02-2005 14:07:15  
WOW - aren"t you glad you pulled it before doing any more damage!
The grooves are not a problem. They can be machined to a larger size, if necessary, and have a spacer fitted. Sounds like it would not have been running like that tooooo long. Maybe put together to sell? I don"t know, you don"t know and prolly no one is going to admit to a trick like that. A quick visual check is to shine a light through the bores and look at the reflection - if it is "regular" and not distorted you are probably OK.
Just measure/check everything for sure, as you need to find if anything else has been mismatched, rings fitted in wrong order, upside down....
Measure a ring end gap in the ring-wear part of the bore and then right down at the bottom and check for any differences. Do they actually fit the bore? Have old rings been fitted in a new bore?
Have fun, be carefull and be right. Then it should give you years of service.
Regards, RAB

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Darren in TN

08-02-2005 14:07:02




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to RAB, 08-02-2005 13:12:12  

RAB, Ferguson's manual states .007" maximum clearance between ring and groove, I measure approximately 0.1" (my feeler gage doesn't go that high, so I'm estimating, but it certainly isn't any less than 0.1"-- not a type-- I laughed out loud when I pulled those pistons, after first gasping). I haven't measured the gaps themselves yet, though I imagine if it was run for any length of time those grooves are galled to heck and back. I'll look at that tonight. The sleeves, though, honestly look and measure good.

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Jerry Cent. Mi.

08-02-2005 16:15:17




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 Re: Assessing cylinder sleeves (a little long) in reply to Darren in TN, 08-02-2005 14:07:02  
Are you looking at the oil rings? They are suppose to have a narrow flat ring on both sides of the ring. Are they missing. .100 space in the ring grooves is hard to believe. Can you provide pictures?



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