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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

dwell

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bob in Ky

07-26-2005 04:10:50




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I am getting ready to put new points in my 48" WD. DO I need to set the dwell or can I just gap the points and be done with it?




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Burnie

07-27-2005 06:05:51




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 Re: dwell in reply to bob in Ky, 07-26-2005 04:10:50  
I used to always measure dwell after setting the points but gave it up as dwell always came up to spec. Proformance engine builders like dwell because they can calculate the dwell angle required for different cam and spark timings.



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Bob

07-26-2005 07:50:58




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 Re: dwell in reply to bob in Ky, 07-26-2005 04:10:50  
Using a dwell meter eliminates having to use a feeler gauge, which can be a source of contamination to new points, severely shortening their life.

If using a feeler gauge, clean it with electrical contact cleaner, and dry it with a lint-free cloth before inserting it between the points. ANY oil on the feeler gauge, even from your fingers, is BAD for the points!



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Steve Hall

09-12-2005 19:46:46




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 Re: dwell in reply to Bob, 07-26-2005 07:50:58  
what is the dwell suppose to be set at on a VH4D????? ?????



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txgrn

07-26-2005 06:21:59




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 Re: dwell in reply to bob in Ky, 07-26-2005 04:10:50  
Setting the points sets the dwell. Dwell is on-off timing whereas point setting is gap.....which also determines the on-off setting. On-off setting determines the time current runs into your ignition coil (filling it up with energy) and subsequently the size of the spark (amount of energy)in your plug's firing.
I mechanic'd for 20 years before I had a dwell meter and then didn't use it very often..... cause electronic ignition had arrived.

Mark

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Allan in NE

07-26-2005 09:16:58




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 Re: dwell in reply to txgrn, 07-26-2005 06:21:59  
Hey Mark!

You're close, but I'd define it a bit differently.

Dwell angle is the amount of "time", measured in degrees of rotation for one cam lobe, that the points are closed, although in reality, the dwell angle is actually the sum of the closing ramp of one lobe and the opening ramp of the next lobe.

The amount of dwell can indeed be changed by the point air-gap, but in and of itself, dwell is not a "timing" thing, but rather, it is a statistic. A measurement.

However, it's preset value will affect ignition timing at the ratio of 1:3 and this is the reason that the points must be set before the engine timing is adjusted.

Bottom line is that dwell is nothing more than just an amount of time and the measurement of this "time" is a more precise way of reading and/or adjusting the point setting vs the “guessing of the air gap” with a feeler gauge.

'Spose ya think I'm splittin' hairs now, right? :>)

Allan

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txgrn

07-27-2005 06:24:41




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 Re: dwell in reply to Allan in NE, 07-26-2005 09:16:58  
No you aren't. I said it was time; the time the coil is allowed to fill.

Since they open at the same time regardless of the gap, the wider the point gap, the farther the dist lobe has to travel before they close...so you get a weaker spark cause the time (fill) is shorter. We're on the same sheet.

Mark



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txgrn

07-27-2005 08:17:12




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 I lied.....well partially in reply to txgrn, 07-27-2005 06:24:41  
I said in stupidity (what else could it be....Har Har) "Since they open at the same time regardless of the gap..... ".

Was eating breakfast while ago and thinking about what Allan said about having to reset the ignition timing after tweaking the points, which I had done countless times, I started thinking about mechanisms:

Why is it that you have to do that? Well I got out a sketch pad and ate with one hand and sketched with the other and what I learned (hadn't thought about) was the fact that the ignition does start earlier with a larger gap....like with a .00000 001" gap, the opening starts and stops on just the top of the cam whereas you can open the gap so far that it never closes.....and the difference between these two extremes is distance....of distributor rotation which translates to time (position of dist....hence timing of spark, vs position of piston and other things) and so you affect ignition timing.

So, mechanisms won out again. Proved myself wrong by understanding the mechanism.

Like I always said, if you can understand how it works (mechanism) it's easy to look till you see where it "doesn't work" and there is your problem.

Sorry for the bad info.

Mark

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Kevin Bismark

07-26-2005 20:42:12




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 Re: dwell in reply to Allan in NE, 07-26-2005 09:16:58  
Yup, pretty good explaination, I don't know about you but most of the time I dont' worry too much about it on a 4 banger or 2 banger but with some of the old V8 pickups I play with I use the dwell meter because we are doing twice as much in the same 360 degree rotation and it seams to work better, the electronic stuff sure is easy to set up compared to the old way, but when you have problems at least you can get going again along the road with the old stuff, a pocket knife to scrape the points and you can drive home.

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Hoosier Pete

07-26-2005 15:20:08




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 Re: dwell in reply to Allan in NE, 07-26-2005 09:16:58  
Allan, that's one of the best explanations I have read outside of a tech manual. No, yer not splittin hairs yer right on the money.



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RAB

07-26-2005 10:00:26




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 Re: dwell in reply to Allan in NE, 07-26-2005 09:16:58  
Allan,
You wrote "it is a statistic. A measurement."
It used to be a very important measurement for the multicylinder, high revving engines.
Get the points-closed period too short and they would miss at high speed. The current build up in the coil is an exponential function and needs a certain time to reach a "saturation level". A V8 at 6000 rpms needs to give 400 sparks per second (one per 2.5 milliseconds). The problem was in stretching that old Ketteringham system enough to get points open wide enough quickly enough and closed long enough all in that short time period. The advent of contactless ignition systems was a fantastic advancement for these old engines.
I agree that a tractor engine at 1500 rpm poses little problems (compared with the old RangeRover V8 among others)
Regards, RAB

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Allan in NE

07-26-2005 10:13:23




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 Re: dwell in reply to RAB, 07-26-2005 10:00:26  
Yepper,

When I was a kid, we called that "float". Same thing happens to valves. :>)

Allan



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frankiee

07-26-2005 04:30:51




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 Re: dwell in reply to bob in Ky, 07-26-2005 04:10:50  
Put "a bit" of lube on the rubbing block and set the points



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