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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Biodiesel

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Tyler from Utah

07-17-2005 17:18:38




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I was wondering if any you guys have had any experiences with the biodiesel? Have you had any problems with injectors or the injector pumps? Also do you have a Powerstroke or Cummings or, Duramax. Ive just been doing some reading on this subject and fatty acids and alcohol are some of the few componants. Rings and alcohol usually dont mix and why would it be any diffrent on a diesel engin. Any and all feedback would be nice with the price of gasoline prices im just looking at some options!

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Mike M

07-18-2005 05:03:12




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
Love those newfangled terms. Actually I always thought of the good old crud oil based fuel as BIO fuel because they tell us it came from decayed plants and animals ?What's more biological than that ?



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T_Bone

07-18-2005 08:41:38




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Mike M, 07-18-2005 05:03:12  
Hi Mike,

There you go it's just not decomposed SVO or crude oil. You know how a name always sells the product, for some unkown reason. If it didn't have that special name no one would buy it. LOL

T_Bone



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T_Bone

07-18-2005 01:00:35




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
Hi Tyler,

Do a google search for rapeseed oil and read a couple Universtiy studies on using SVO (straight vegetable oil) at more than 25%SVO/75%#2D will cause injector and top piston ring plugging on long term usage.

B100 is SVO with the glycerin removed. B100 takes longer to plug the top rings but all the long term studies I've read, B100 can't not be used long term on most engines, however B50, 50%B100/50%#2D can be used for long term use without any side effects.

The reports all indicated about 500hrs of run time before tests showed the severe plugging problems.

This doesn't hold true as the guys on the VW TDI forums are getting more than 500hrs using B100 without any problems. However, I have read reports form guys using 100%SVO with ring plugging problems at about 1000hrs.

B100 has less BTU/gal than #2D so power will be slightly lower as well as fuel mileage.

The problem I have with B100 is it tracks the price of dino fuel. Why should it? The cost of SVO did not raise nor did the trucking cost raise nor did the cost of producing B100 raise
nor did the grain price raise.

Why? Because they can! And that burns me.

T_Bone

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txgrn

07-18-2005 05:40:27




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-18-2005 01:00:35  
T-Bone my man, My first day in Economics 101 was an eye opener. I had always thought that as demand increased, usage increased, and production increased, all of which should bring the unit cost down because of high volume mass production..... wrong!

Just the opposite..... ."cause they can" and can get away with it.

Mark



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T_Bone

07-18-2005 08:46:15




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to txgrn, 07-18-2005 05:40:27  
Hi Mark,

That sounds really close to Management 101.

Complicate the manufacturing process so the workers won't make the part at home and under cut your price. :<)

T_Bone



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txgrn

07-19-2005 07:06:50




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-18-2005 08:46:15  
You got it buddy.

Mark



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Mike M

07-18-2005 09:45:49




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to T_Bone, 07-18-2005 08:46:15  
And then comes China 101 --- make it cheaper sell it cheaper ---laugh all the way to the bank and cripple the USA at the same time.



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txgrn

07-19-2005 07:07:41




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Mike M, 07-18-2005 09:45:49  
Dat's true.



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Mark - IN.

07-18-2005 18:04:10




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Mike M, 07-18-2005 09:45:49  
You would be correct. China is buying tons of fuel, and it does drive the price up (supply and demand). But here's one that very few are focusing on. Perhaps you heard about China's bid for Unical a week or so ago? For those that haven't heard, that would be the Chinese government making a bid to buy an American petrolium company. If that isn't a national security issue, none ever existed, and if it's allowed to fly, every last one of our legislators needs to be dragged from office and..., well, fill in the blank. Here's the truely scary thing. According to the Kyoto Treaty, which President Bush won't sign on to (thank goodness), and the European countries whom penned it won't even sign onto it themselves, but beat us for not, CHINA IS NOT CONSIDERED A DEVELOPED COUNTRY, the likes of which our USA, England, Germany, Russia, etc are, so they will not need to adhere to the Kyoto Treaty. China, whom makes virtually anything bought in our USA, and much of the world. So what would this mean as far as Unical (or any petrolium company) being bought by the Chinese governmant? They will not have to abide by the same EPA laws that our American companies must, and can drill in the Gulf of Mexico, where our it takes an act of Congress to turn a wrench to tighten a nut on a rig, and there won't be a thing we can do to stop it. China could and would drill of our American shores, the same shores that our own companies can not or are very limited at, and nothing could be done to stop it. And no one has a problem with that? Something very wrong with that picture. Very wrong.

A few years ago, Edison was considering selling of some nukes, and some of the bidders were foriegn companies. Believe it or not, the rules of the NRC aren't as stringent for foriegn owners of nukes, as they are for American owners. How the h... are nukes run on American soil by foriegn companies somehow safer to run or deal with than by American owners? That kind of garbage makes zero sense. Thank goodness they didn't sell them off, at least not yet.

Our legislators, from both sides of the aisles need to be dragged out kickin and screaming.

Mark

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txgrn

07-19-2005 07:11:41




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 07-18-2005 18:04:10  
I saw the bid for sale of Unical. Very disturbing and China's development is one reason for tight fuel (be it supply or refining) and current high prices, and it will get worse.

Mark



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David A. Hodson

07-17-2005 19:25:48




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
Tyler, I've been running B5 for 2-3 months now inmy trucks and farm equipment. Which are 3 Fords, 1986 with 7.3L nat., 1988 with 7.3L nat, 1997 7.3 stroke. Farm equipment is 1972 Farmall 766, 1977 IH 886 and a 1991 Axi-Flow 1640 with the 5.9L Cummins. The '86 actully runs cooler and has more power with lee black smoke, and all 3 Fords run smoother and quieter. If my local co-op ever get straightened out I'm gonna jump to B20, even though up here bio is more expensive than regular. David

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txgrn

07-17-2005 19:42:48




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to David A. Hodson, 07-17-2005 19:25:48  
David,

Is the B20 that Willie is talking about from his company?

Mark



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K in IA

07-17-2005 19:21:15




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
John Deere currently puts B2 biodiesel in all their new row crop and 4WD tractors from the factory. They started it earlier this year.

By the way, many of us here in the midwest have been using 10% corn alcohol in our gasoline autos since the 70's. It doesn't hurt the rings at all.



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txgrn

07-17-2005 19:40:42




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to K in IA, 07-17-2005 19:21:15  
On the alcohol, does it make rubber swell like people feared?

Mark



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K in Ia

07-18-2005 18:53:27




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel Corn Gas in reply to txgrn, 07-17-2005 19:40:42  
Mark,
I"ve never had any problems with rubber products swelling with 10% ethanol.

When I first put it in my 1971 Chevy, it had something like 70,000 miles on it. That was probably in the 80"s. Since the alcohol is a cleaner, it cleaned the fuel tank, lines, etc and plugged the fuel filter. I replaced the filter a couple of times, but other than that, no problem.

That"s the only car I ever had any problems with. I"ve run it new in chevys, dodges and a host of volkswagens with no problem at all.

The state of Iowa runs 85% corn alcohol (E85) in many of their cars. My bother-in-law"s chrysler mini van, and many other new vehicles will run on E85 from the factory. The computer adjusts to it and away you go. Somewhat less gas mileage is normal with ethanol.

10% corn gas is about 10 cents a gallon cheaper here in Iowa, partly due to taxes. I"m not sure about E85.

I"d sure like to see our economy depend more on corn and soybeans and less on foreign oil.....

K

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txgrn

07-19-2005 07:14:43




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel Corn Gas in reply to K in Ia, 07-18-2005 18:53:27  
"Clogged Filters" reminds me of an old 18 wheeler tractor I once bought. Had been sitting for a long time and had 2 100 gallon fuel tanks.

So I bought a case of fuel filters and would run down the road till it started slowing down. Then pull over, swap the filters and away we go. Took the whole case but it cleared up.

Mark



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HH in AR

07-17-2005 18:37:21




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
Hi tyler
I am manager of a coop in Arkansas. we sell the bio diesel. will blend what ever you want.
I went last winter and talked to John deere and CIH dealers. Both said their company wasn't recomending more than a 5% blend so that is what we try to stick with.
As for the hoses getting soft my experience has been staying with 20% or lower hasn't given any problem that I know about.
Harold

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Bob

07-17-2005 18:07:09




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
The commercially-produced soy biodiesel is supposed to be BETTER for the fuel system and engine than staright dinodiesel.

Is that what you are referring to, or homebrew WVO fuel?



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Tim B from MA

07-18-2005 09:36:46




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Bob, 07-17-2005 18:07:09  
Bob,

What is WVO fuel?



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John M

07-18-2005 15:03:57




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tim B from MA, 07-18-2005 09:36:46  
Waste vegetable oil,like the cook French fries at Burger King in. I run it sometimes like on a trip or when I know Im going to be driving here and there alot.Buddy of mine makes it and I pay him about .90 a gallon.Smells good too!



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txgrn

07-17-2005 17:24:27




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Tyler from Utah, 07-17-2005 17:18:38  
There is a place between Dallas and Hillsboro, Tx. That sells the stuff on Interstate 35.

Willie Nelson, Texan, Country Singer, indorses the product and says it's good for the midwest farmers which translates to being made from grain, not petroleum.

Saw one of his commercials on the History Channel (I think) the other day and also when I passed the place mentioned there was a big bilboard with his picture on it.

Dunno about performance or anyone using it. But hopefully Willie did his homework before he indorsed the product. Course with his red-neck attitude he may not be worried about it....I dunno.

Mark

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Gorilla

07-17-2005 18:24:34




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to txgrn, 07-17-2005 17:24:27  
Carls Corner is where you are talking about txgrn. I buy Willies biodiesel there all the time. I have been running it for about 6 months. I love it. It is 20% biodiesel (supposedly soybeans). It is my understanding that the big 3 automakers warranties are not voided by an 80/20 mixture. They suggest you change your fuel filter after a tank or two because it cleans your system really well & could get some gunk in the filter. My truck (duramax) runs quieter on it & runs great. I didnt really notice an increase in mileage but all the truckers say they get about 1mpg better mileage. Lots of folks using it & so far it has been pretty comparable in price, actually lower than you can usually buy diesel around Dallas. They keep a spiral notebook on a table there & they invite folks to write their comments about the fuel. Everybody loves it. He just added two more tanks..& is now selling 40% and 5%. I have heard that you need to be careful burning biodiesel in anything '94' or older cause it could make rubber seals/hoses leak. Dont know if that applies to B20 or just to straight B100 but I dont burn it in my tractor yet. Give it a try if you get the chance.

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txgrn

07-17-2005 18:48:56




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Gorilla, 07-17-2005 18:24:34  
That's it bro, Carl's Corner. I thought it was just a truck stop. But the last time I was by there there was a green road sign like it had incorporated and the state of Tx. recognized it as an incorporated city.

Whadda deal.

So how's Willie fit in to the overall scheme of things.....think he financed some of the research or something?

Mark



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gorilla

07-17-2005 18:27:30




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to Gorilla, 07-17-2005 18:24:34  
Link



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txgrn

07-17-2005 19:32:08




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to gorilla, 07-17-2005 18:27:30  
So I guess the Carl Cornelius is the Carl of Carl's Corner fame who opened that truckstop at least 35 years ago as I saw it in 1968 when I came to Dallas.

His bilboard is showing the effects of time.

Thanks,

Mark



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gorilla

07-17-2005 20:33:45




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to txgrn, 07-17-2005 19:32:08  
Yep, Carl is still there & the mayor of Carls corner. It is an incorporated town. I think the truck stop swaps ownership between Carl & WIllie during poker games so Im not sure who owns it. They have been doing a lot of work to the place lately & They had a tractor pull on the 4th of July. Willie & Carl are buds & He comes around pretty often I think. My Mom lived across a cotton field from Willie when she was young & my grandparents used to go dancing at the Night Owl in West when Willie was Playing there. Willie is a partner in this biodiesel thing. He is in with 2 or 3 other guys I think. He has the name I guess & it fits in with his farm aid stuff. He has been using biodiesel himself for quite awhile I think. The city of Denton has somebody brewing biodiesel at their dump. They use some of the methane off of the dump. The city of Denton is buying around 1 million gallons a year for their city vehicles & I think the plant puts out around 3 million last i heard.

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txgrn

07-18-2005 05:44:52




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 Re: OT: Biodiesel in reply to gorilla, 07-17-2005 20:33:45  
Interesting. I really like Willie. He just does his thing without regard to what people think. Sometimes I wish I could do that....but I am too sensitive to what people think of me. Just the way I was raised.
Mark



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