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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

how hard to run a diesel engine?????

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vabill

04-12-2005 06:40:28




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finally got my case/ih running.replaced head and repaired cracks in the block.the guy that fixed it told me a diesel runs better when you really push it. he said diesels are built to run at or near max rpm. is this really true?. bill




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Joe in CA

04-13-2005 12:24:52




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
They aren't necessarily required to run at max RPM but they are more efficient at about 95% of max BMEP (brake mean effective pressure). We re-engined our Navy ship (big salvage tug) with new Caterpillar diesels and the Cat tech rep advised us to run 'em hard. He said not to operate all four main engines when only two would do the job.



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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

04-13-2005 05:27:51




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
From what I have heard that depends upon the diesel. My friend spent $10,700 CDN a few years ago rebuilding a Detroit Diesel in his boat because of a lubrication failure the techs tied to his not running the 2 cycle engine hard enough. They told him that that particular engine is designed to run at close to full power, and my friend used to toodle around at near-idle with it because two of these engines could run his AVRO-Richardson 36 at hull speed with very little effort.

But I think that Detroit Diesel is an odd duck, and the rules of operation for that 2 cycle shouldn't necessarily carry over to elderly 4 cycles just because they burn oil for fuel.

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TractorMike

04-12-2005 19:00:25




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Last year I bought a Ford 4000 diesel for a little bit more heavy-duty work, Like bushhoging and plowing. I have found that my tractor(for PTO work) runs better at about 100 RPM's higher than the rated engine RPM's for 540 PTO, So instead of 1,800 rpm's for 540 pto rpm's I like to run 1,900 rpm's. Also this is the 8 speed tranney so I run in low 2. Now if I'm scraping a road or something, I use whatever rpm's are needed

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Jonboy

04-12-2005 12:36:37




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
So what are exactly are you asking?, are you asking if it's better to run your tractor at full throttle all the time even when the extra power isn't needed?. What I do and it works great for me is just use my tractor normally and only use the amount of throttle required to do whatever task effeciently, all that running extra throttle is going to do is excellerate engine wear and burn up extra fuel for nothing. Now take for example, I am just finishing up maple sugaring and I used a 40hp diesel for a gathering tractor to pull my sap tank, that tractor spent many hours just idling at a medium to high idle, and I have noticed it doesn't like to start quite as instantly as it did just before the season, but I got the perfect fix for that as I'm about to put our 3pth rototiller on it, that'll clean the cobwebs out of it. I find the key to keeping a diesel in good condition is to use it like normal but you need to put it to work once and a while and get them good and warm as a diesel uses heat to ignite the air/fuel mixture and a bunch of cabon fouls things up, carbon is cleaned out when you get the engine up to a good operating temperature. Like I say, I have idled my gathering tractor for hours lately so it hasn't had a chance to get up to a good full operating temperature and thats why it doesn't run quite as good or start as easily, but I know all that will change after I hook up my rototiller and till up this place and my neighbors, then it'll be brush hogging and haying time after that which is also very good. Diesels are happyier when run for long periods of time, startup is harder on them because when they are cold combustion doesn't happen no where near as efficently as when at full operating temp and this is why diesels smoke and have less power on first start up. Say if you don't do nothing more than just very short run times, the engine will get fouled, but don't let this stop you from using your tractor, use it, and just keep in mind it needs a long good full operating temp run every once and awhile and I mean more than just letting it run in your dooryard, I mean actually using it, do some heavy pto work, or pulling such as a rototiller or a set of harrows or plows. You'll notice a big difference right after doing this. Just watch your temp guage and don't let it get into the red otherwise you will be destroying the engine rather than just cleaning it out. Now with this said you don't have to go out a buy some huge piece of equipment thats too big for the tractor, just buy the stuff you'd like and that will be enough as you don't need to torture the engine, just warm it up alittle. I got a 6ft brushhog for my 40hp and thats enough to clean out the cobwebs, and yes I do run it at full throttle for that. Diesel engines like to be used, as long as you keep your tractor fairly active you'll be in good shape.

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John I

04-12-2005 11:27:01




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Personally, I run my equipment at rated RPM or around 200 RPM under rated RPM. There are a few points you should be sure of:

1) Never lug the engine

2.)Don't overload it

Some people swear by running engines around 1500 no higher, but I used to do that and I went thru engine like water. I have a 3594 CIH now that has over 9000 hrs on it right now- no over haul and been run like I say, runs like a top. It's probably a bit of personal prefernce to it too, my Dad alway ran them at such and such so I do...

See ya,

John I

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STRICTLY IH

12-11-2005 06:28:20




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to John I, 04-12-2005 11:27:01  
HOW DO YOU LIKE THE 3594 OVERALL? I AM LOOKING AT GETTING ONE



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jdemaris

04-12-2005 11:14:10




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
It all depends on the specific engine. Some diesels are made to run at peak efficiency a low RPMs, some high. Many short-stroke diesels, especially some used in cars and pickup trucks see a huge drop in efficiency when RPMs exceed 1900. With the issue of longevity instead of efficiency, diesels need to be run at their designated operating temperature and not left idling at very low RPMs for long periods of time. But, the idea (that I've been told many times) that a diesel needs to run full bore - well, in my opinion, it's nonsense. Initial break-in to establish a cylinder wall wear pattern and to prevent ring-walking - requires one to load the engine a bit - but not a full load, and not for the rest of the engine's useful life either. Most deisel engine companies now rate their engines expected life in gallons of fuel consumed instead of engine hours. With that figuring, a higher load means more fuel consumed, i.e. engine's life getting used up a little faster.

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Bob M

04-12-2005 10:58:15




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Operator’s manuals for modern, high horsepower JD tractors instruct the operator to “gear up and throttle down” whenever possible – i.e. to run the lowest RPM you can without lugging the engine.

How to tell if it’s lugging? So long as the engine RPMs hold up and it pulls thru hard spots, you see no black exhaust smoke when it’s pulling hard and the temperature stays normal, it’s not being lugged.

Why do this? By reducing RPM’s it reduces wear on the engine and saves significantly on fuel.

My experience is this strategy works. Have found a JD 8960 (370 HP Cummins governed at 2,100 PRM) will run happily all day long loafing along at 1,200-1,300 RPM pulling a light load. Same with an 8300 (rated 210(?) HP at 2,300 RPM) worked light.

What’s also signicant is the reduced NOISE! Even inside the factory cab the reduction in fan roar, etc. when throttled down is very noticable.

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buickanddeere

04-12-2005 10:25:52




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
A diesel's best fuel efficiency range is usually at rpms between peak torque and peak HP. And loaded to 85% or alittle more. Otherwise thermal losses up the stack just waste fuel.



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Kevin (FL)

04-12-2005 10:10:49




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Vabill,

The torque curve of a typical diesel engine peaks ahead of, but fairly close to its full rated RPM, also called the high-idle speed or maximum governed speed. Because of this fact, it is common to hear folks say that the diesel is most efficient running at full speed. However, like any other engine, the fuel delivery and engine speed should be adjusted as needed to meet engine loads. There is no reason to run a diesel at full speed, (say to pull a cultivator) and then have to shift the transmission into low range to maintain the desired ground speed. If the engine can handle the load at lower speeds, then run it at lower speeds. As the other post said--you should never lug a diesel--that is, overload it at low RPM's to a point where black smoking and fuel knocking occurs. This condition places tremendous loads on engine bearings (rods, mains and wrist pins) and also causes excessive combustion pressures. Increasing the throttle at low RPM and high loads simply dumps more fuel into the engine and increased pressures result along with possible engine damage.

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Hugh MacKay

04-12-2005 09:07:03




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
bill: Most important with the diesel is keep temperature in operating range suggested by manufacturer, usually around 180F. Do your work between max torque and full throttle. maximum torque on most diesels around 1,500 rpm.

Full throttle is a bit of a myth. Look at the big rigs on highway, most of them never run at full throttle. Most of them at 65 mph are turning 1,650 rpm in high gear. Cat will even tell you not to be afraid to lug their truck engines to 1,000 rpm, short term, if it avoids spinning out on an icy hill, from shifting gears.

Remember the efficiency of a diesel lies in that maximum torque at low rpm. You see guys buy a diesel pickup, put in 4.10 axle gears so it will make lots of noise and burn just as much fuel as a gasser. Plus it will turn 2,800 rpm on highway driving. I ran a 6,2 Chevy with 3.24 gears half million miles with no rebulild and got 30 miles to Canadian gallon (24 US) It turned 1,800 rpm on highway. And we all considered the 6.2 a Mickey Mouse affair.

After my many years experience with diesels I would never buy another diesel with a governed range higher than 2,000 rpm. Just look at the 475 hp Cat on highway, governed under 2,000 rpm, pulling 140,000 lbs, it will accelerate just as fast in either of the two closest gears, at about 40 mph. IH and Deere for example didn't need 2,400 rpm to get same hp out of those diesels they were using in the 70s. RPM's were just to wear then out faster. There was no choice standard pto was at 2,300 rpm, or there abouts.

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Pawel

04-12-2005 08:34:50




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Hi Bill,

I always heard "run a diesel hard and high but don't abuse it". Keep the RPM's up there, it doesn't have to be screaming, but it shouldn't be lugged down past say 2000R RPM on a modern tractor... As for running it hard, select the highest gear that will pull your load without lugging it down past 2000RPM. Just make sure you don't abuse it, keep an eye on the temp guage and the pyrometer.

God bless and have fun!

Pawel

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Bob

04-12-2005 07:43:42




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
I think having a good thermostat, and even covering part of the radiator to bring the engine up to proper operating temperature in cool weather is better advice than "run at or near max rpm".

With most diesels, there's no reason you can't throttle back a bit, and shift up, if it will pull the load.

However, you don't want to lug a diesel down below it's peak torque RPM (which is usually considerably lower than max RPM's).

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Coloken

04-12-2005 07:38:27




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Work it good, but don't lug it down. Let it keep its RPMs up.



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Allan in NE

04-12-2005 07:27:51




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to vabill, 04-12-2005 06:40:28  
Hi Bill,

He's right. Those diesels are built to work; anything less and they start pouting. :>)

Allan



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RustyFarmall

04-12-2005 07:36:43




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to Allan in NE, 04-12-2005 07:27:51  
I guess "pouting" is a good word for it. I've seen diesels that weren't worked hard enough actually slobber unburnt fuel out the stack, where it runs down the muffler, drips onto the hood, and makes a total mess of everything. I can only imagine that the same thing happens inside the engine. Not good.



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vabill

04-12-2005 09:25:18




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 Re: how hard to run a diesel engine????? in reply to RustyFarmall, 04-12-2005 07:36:43  
thanks everyone foe their response. this is my first diesel and my first tractor. having a gas mentality i ve been babying this thing. when i was running this tractor and saw it up around 1800-1900 rpm i would shift up so i could bring it down to 1000-1200 rpm. i figured i would blow the engine. i have a lot to learn. thanks again, bill



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