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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Running engine without thermostat

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Willy P

03-25-2005 18:59:25




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What does it hurt to run a diesel engine without the thermostat? I have a IH 1066 and the guage never goes past half way and it does not seem to be getting hot but I thought about taqking the thermostat out. It won't be running in cold weather but I was wondering if it would hurt anything. Thanks




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Jerry/MT

03-26-2005 17:37:53




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Thaere are a lot of bad things than happen when you run without a thermostat. I can't think of any good things. Put a thermostat in!



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Gerald J.

03-26-2005 13:17:43




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Other than engine efficiency and life there's no need for the thermostat.

With the combustion temperature several hundred degrees higher than the coolant temperture, running the cooling system cold takes more heat from the combustion and so reduces the output of the engine. So the cold engine takes more fuel for the same load. For this consideration it would be nice to run a coolant temperature a couple hundred degrees warmer, but pistons and rings can't yet hack higher temperatures. Ceramic pistons, cylinders, and rings may allow that higher coolant temperatures in the future. Essentially, the hotter you can run the engine AND still lubricate it (there's be big rub) and take away the waste heat (in a diesel more than 2/3 of the heat energy in the fuel goes to the oil and coolant) the better.

Then there are the side effects on the oil. Water is a combustion product of hydrocarbon fuels (from burning the hydrogen). Cool cylinder walls condense that water that then can run into the crankcase. Inburned fuel follows. Both affect the lubricating oil adversely. Makes sludge and that sludge blocks passages and the water and fuel parts of the "lubricating" oil don't lubricate well so bearings wear. On top of that water with combustion products like those from burning a bit of sulfur makes sulfuric acid that eats bearings.

Running the engine as close to water boiling as possible (180 or 210 degree thermostat with a closed and pressurized cooling system) boils the fuel and water OUT of the oil getting far better bearing and oil life.

Running an engine without a thermostat is ABUSE, don't do it. If the engine doesn't heat up the thermostat isn't closing properly. Put in a new thermostat. If the engine still doesn't warm up, restrict the air flow through the radiator in the winter.

Gerald J.

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buickanddeere

03-26-2005 11:31:12




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
There is reasoning out there that goes something like this." too hot and boiling is bad...so colder must be better." The problem with most diesels is they run too cold, not too hot. At light load or idle the thermostat is fully closed and the engine never reaches 180 to 195F required. A full charge of air is always drawn into a diesel. At idle/light loads the wee bit of fuel injected just makes a little pssst of flame in the middle of the combustion chamber. Most of that air drwn in isn't used in the combustion process. It just picks up heat from the engine and carries it out the stack. Cooling the engine. Same problem with oil,wood,coal and gas burners etc. Mr. Tinkers think some air is good, more is better. So they open the air intake all the way adding the max amount cold unused air. Overall efficiency has just been dropped. You are burning more fuel in the long run to draw more cold air into the house, heat the air and blow the unused air out the stack.

At 180-195 the cylinder wall, ring and piston wear is reduced. Cold cylinder walls condense unburned fuel on themsleves. And dilute that thin layer of lube oil in the pores of the metal causing accelerated wear. Cold temps also fill and stick rings/lands with carbon/soot. Along with the previously stated port/combustion/valve deposites and "wet stacking." Put that tractor on a pto generator or something and begin measuring the coolant temp entering the rad before warmed up and under pressure. I suspect your IH rarely reaches proper operating temps with the stat.

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John Horner

03-26-2005 08:45:41




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
You will certainly slow down the warm up process and the engine will take longer to get up to operating temperature. This means worse performance, more fuel fouling of the oil and other bad things.

Also, a properly designed cooling system accounts for the flow restriction of the thermostat. Removing it on some engines increases the risk of cavitating the water pump and other bad things.

There are no advantages to running without a thermostat in your situation. Why on earth would you want to?

John

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Allan in NE

03-26-2005 05:19:24




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Willy,

Leave well enough alone. Take that thermostat out and the old tractor will be slobberin' all over itself.

That 414 needs the heat.

Allan



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Bus Driver

03-26-2005 05:02:23




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Willy, let's turn the question around. What do you think will be gained by removing the thermostat? If you think it will be better without it, wonder why the manufacturer installed it in the first place?



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Mark - IN.

03-25-2005 21:57:11




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Thermostats do two things, heat and cool the engine. In cooler temperatures, running without one may cause the engine not to reach it's proper operating range because the coolant isn't being held in the engine long enough. In warmer weather, can cause the engine not to cool properly because the coolant isn't being held in the radiator long enough be cooled by the fan.

Will it harm anything by not having one? Hard to say, depending upon the conditions. Put one in and be done with it, and worrying.

Mark

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Joe (Wa)

03-25-2005 20:11:03




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Running a diesel cold promotes incomplete combustion, carbon accumulation, stack souping, oil sludging from excess carbon & moisture, and uneven thermal growth (fractures) in areas exposed to combustion temperature.

Joe



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Larry NE IL

03-25-2005 20:00:00




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
The object of a thermostat is to maintain a uniform tempature while the engine is running.
Removing the thermostat defeats that purpose. The engine will run at cooler temps. when operated without much load or in colder weather. Cooler operating temps in a diesel usually mean unburnt fuel and inefficent lubrication, neither do your engine any good. Larry



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buickanddeere

03-25-2005 19:30:59




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
What is the problem running the engine when it doesn't seem to get get hot and the temp gauge is about in the middle?



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dilbert

03-25-2005 21:30:13




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to buickanddeere, 03-25-2005 19:30:59  
None B&D, but if the placement of the temperature bulb doesn't reflect the true block coolant temperature then there could be a problem like with the early 4020s that inveriably showed hot because of an inadequate bypass design. The gauge was correct for the placement being in one of those hot spots but the coolant temperature as a whole wasn't so bad.



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msb

03-25-2005 19:14:05




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
On some engines depending upon the design,it is not a good idea as it can cause hot spots in the head by not having the restriction of the thermostat in place.Typically it will happen the farthest away from the stat housing in the head.Circulation is too fast in this case.Actually it can cause an engine to run even hotter without the thermostat as it doesn't give the fan and radiator time to adequetely cool the coolant.

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Big Rick

03-25-2005 19:07:44




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 Re: Running engine without thermostat in reply to Willy P, 03-25-2005 18:59:25  
Sometimes if you remove the thermostat the engine will run hot because the coolant circulates too quickly. This means that it does not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down.



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