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Is running a dozer hard to learn?

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Thomas2

03-07-2005 09:09:54

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Going to put in a 800 foot driveway on a bare piece of land. Plan is to dig down 6-8 inches, push dirt off to the sides and then and backfill with larger rock (1"s, 2", or 4"s.) on bottom and then topdress with 411 birm, etc.

A few questions:
I have driven a combine and tractors, etc, how hard is it to learn to use a rented dozer - D4 or D5 to do this?

How deep do I want the excavation? I plan to have about 8" of total depth of stone...do I want to end up flush with the surrounding dirt surface or slighly above grade?

This is pretty level land, just digging a 10 ft wide swath...

What about those new fabrics...what do they cost per linear foot, and are they worth it?
This will be for a future homesite.

Thanks for your help.

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Mac

03-08-2005 05:52:21

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

It's not as easy as they make it look.
I rented a JD 450 from neighbor to cut down some overdone terraces in my pastures and take out 100 or so unwanted trees. The trees were fairly easy. Cutting the terraces was pretty fustrating. I'm not sure if short tracks or sloppy blade bushings were culprit, but it was difficult to get a smooth cut. Seems I'd start out shallow, and when tracks met the cut, it would cut deeper and I'd have to adjust blade, and then by the time the whole track was in cut it'd be too shallow again and have to drop blade again. Then I'd be back where I started with having to adjust again. I might finally get a good smooth cut going and hit a sandier spot or a dip and blade would dig in...and have to try to get cut started again. Even at just $25/hr, I figured out it was just too expensive to learn. Discing and backblade did a fine job instead.

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Oliver

03-08-2005 05:50:34

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I don"t know if it"s hard to learn to run a dozer or not. However I see people every day who seem to have never learned how to drive a car, and yet, they are out there on the roads behind the wheel of one. You also see people who have been at a job for years and years and still don"t seem to know how to do it. So maybe, it"s just that learning anything to a high standard is difficult for a lot of people. Try as they might the DMV can"t employee all those people.

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Midwest redneck

03-08-2005 02:27:46

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I dont know how hard it is to learn to drive a dozer, but I will say this, It is not hard to learn how to use a dozer blade on a tractor. I would suggest that you rent a front end loader, backhoe to scrape off the top 6inches of dirt and then use the front bucket for sand/gravel placement.

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leland

03-07-2005 23:53:24

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

For a base I use recycled concrete this packs down tight or call your local redi mix plant and see how much they sell there wash out mix for some times this can be gotton cheap. As for the dozer practice makes perfect some have it some don't as john said.

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Can't even use my name

03-07-2005 19:30:07

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I know around here there is usually a $500 minium per job. So at $100 per hour rental you can play for 5 hours and be even plus the fun of it. Go for it, how many times do you get to play in a huge sandbox with the big toys?

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john in la

03-07-2005 18:04:40

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Running a dozer is a piece of cake as long as all you want to do is ride around. Most can even spread out piles of dirt with a very few hours of practice. BUT..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
I have been around all types of equipment from skid steer loaders to 1000 ton cranes and can tell you no one can answer this question for you.
Operating a piece of equipment can be taught but you are usually born with the knack.

I have seen a 12 year old boy that could blue top with the best of them but then again I have seen some so called operators that could practice till they are 120 and still not be able to blue top.

So lets look at the real cost..... .....
Others have stated that a experienced operator would take 20 hours to do the job. You can expect to double that or 40 hrs. Do they rent the dozer by the day or is every 8 hrs a day.
40/8= 5 days x 300 = 1500 + fuel and deliver=2000
3 days lost at work x 150 = 450
Grade at least 8" deep but 16" in some spots because you can not blue top = 600 tons x 10.50 (7.50 + 3)= 6300
So now you are at $8750
That is a savings of $4250 so I say go for it and have fun.

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farmalljim10

03-07-2005 17:50:05

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I had a Komatus d-21 for 3 years did a lot of stuff with it you will be fine just dont rush use fabrich it will pay for itself in having a bottom to hold the gravel..Hope you have a 6 way blade. Sold my dozer after 3 years for same as I paid for it and made 30,000 on the farm we cleaned up...Jim

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Mark - IN.

03-07-2005 17:47:43

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I've seen them do it many times, but never paid attention, guess because wasn't paying for it until my barn. The guy came over with a 450 Case and in some places cut down a couple of feet, some places didn't really need much, and some places filled in with dirt to level. He used a laser. Got the transmit strobe set at the level that I wanted at one of the corners, then on the blade itself had a reciever with high, low, dead on, and that's what he worked from. Took him a few hours at $65 per hour, and road it out slow watching where he was going, and looking for a constant "dead on" on the reciever on the blade. Got it within an inch all the way around.

Now for the guys that did it for decades without lasers, I bow to you guys - absolute masters.

By the way, I started leveling with a back blade on one of the tractors, but not for long. It became very clear very quick that I'm no master at that, and a back blade aint good for that. LOL.

Mark

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Redmud

03-07-2005 15:38:49

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Thomas, I"ve been around heavy equipment a big part of my 65 years. I don"t think you can get the assurance you want to hear. but I will tell you this, I have seen some naturals in my time. You won"t know untill you mount the iron horse, if I were in your place I would go for it with a second thought. Run it, or operate it, either way will get the job done, only difference is the finish product.

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the tractor vet

03-07-2005 16:09:08

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Redmud, 03-07-2005 15:38:49

It will look like a wash board at first till ya get the hang of strippen topsoil , If ya have enough dozer you can get under the topsoil and roll it like a rug and when ya start to spin come up on the blade and off to the side and back into the slot and get another blade full . Now speaken for myself i would try for a 750 Deere i have run most of the dozer that are out there up to a D9 cat but i fell in love with the Deeres when i ran dozer in the oilpatch like running a big skidsteer and fast It would take me less then two hours to cut that slot and if ya got 4 or 5 trucks and the stone pile was not tofar away it would be praygo by noon.

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T_Bone

03-07-2005 15:08:13

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Hi Thomas,

Another snag you might run into is from your County Planning and Zoning Dept. A friend had to run 1/4 mile of private driveway 30ft wide to meet code.

P&Z excuse? In case a ambulance has to pass a firetruck on the way to his house for a rescue.

They even spec'd the gravel type, size and depth but the inspector said he didn't pay to much attention to that other than "see the gravel" on the surface as he drives on it to final building inspection.

You might want to check with your County.

T_Bone

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Thomas2

03-07-2005 13:53:49

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Let me give some more info....I estimated 350 tons of stone...this was for 10 inches depth ...at $7.50 per ton, this is $2600. Delivery would be $3/ton to tailgate them- this is $1000.

Dozer rental from Cat at $300 per day - 2 days...plus fuel, delivery this is $1000....

Total of $4600.....

I had a quote from a "pro" for $13,000....to do the driveway.

A savings of $8400...for that, I can afford to make a few mistakes and go a bit deeper on accident....plus - I GET TO PLAY!

Both were without the fabric....I know it is nice, so at $0.60 per sq. yd this is $600....probably a no-brainer to do the farbic?

P.S. this driveway is NOT for large farm machinery, etc

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kyhayman

03-07-2005 17:33:35

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 13:53:49

Check out some other rental companies. Few things I've rented Hertz has had the best price (yeah, the car people). They will negotiate on price too. I got a 650 Deere, for about a $1000 a week (40 hrs), they let me keep it for 2 for that price with the same 40 hr due to the weather. Delivery was reasonable ($2.10 a mile) and damage waiver was 10%. Total was $1350. (with a 2 hr over run).

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720Deere

03-07-2005 15:22:24

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 13:53:49

Thomas2,

Be careful on your stone calculations. You are assuming a 100% flat subgrade and exactly 10' width. Even the best operators will experience a 10% overrun vs clean dimensions. Also make sure that your yield rate on the stone is not based on loose volume but rather compacted. I come up with around 350 tons @ 8" depth. That is without waste figured.

If I was pricing the job for you, I would be around $9500. That would be for 8" of stone and all the grading work. What I was refering to before was hiring a small excavating contractor by the hour to do the work and you buy the materials. By your calculations, you would save $600 to $800 vs hiring a contractor to do the work. 400 tons per day on a 10 driveway is just about a full days work for a seasoned operator. It would also take an experienced guy at least a day to prepare for the stone. I'm guessing about 20 hours @ $80 per hour for what you need. I don't believe that someone who has never run a dozer before can complete that job in 2 days with a D4.

This is based on my experience as a cost estimator/project manager in this line of work for the last 15 years. I've been around some of the best in the business, and they wouldn't finish in any less than 2 days.

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John H in MD

03-07-2005 16:10:39

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to 720Deere, 03-07-2005 15:22:24

720Deere I agree with you on this.Even using GABC crushed black top or GABC curshed concrete, with the waste you would need about 480 ton. I'v been doing this kind of work for the best part of 30 years and after thinking about I belive it would take me about 25 hours with a GOOD tight tilt and angle blade D4 or D5. It would take some time to cut your back slopes in to make it drain. With a $3.00 a ton haul I priced $9750 for the job. Thats providing there are no soft spots that need to be undercut ot the top soil doesn't run 18" deep as we see from time to time.

John

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Pistol Pete

03-08-2005 20:13:46

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to John H in MD , 03-07-2005 16:10:39

I too have a good deal of experience in not only doing the work, I do a lot of finish grade work with dozers and road graders, but in bidding and calculating jobs and quantities. With compaction and the variences of + or - .02 (1/4"), I have found 20% overrun for aggregate this comes pretty close. Running a road graderis a completely different animal. Every lever that you touch changes EVERYTHING. Good luck with your project.

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Zane(WA)

03-07-2005 14:32:40

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 13:53:49

Ah heck, go ahead learn and play, after all it is only a driveway. Not like you are doing a lot of backfilling, compacting and such. Might just find yourself a new occupation.
Good Luck.

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Davefr

03-07-2005 13:52:06

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

How hard is it to operate a road grader vs. a bulldozer??

The last road grader I saw had dozens of various controls.

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buickanddeere

03-07-2005 13:49:55

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Don't steer gradual particularly when pushing a load. Light constant pressure on steering lever means new steering brakes or clutches on a regular basis.

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720Deere

03-07-2005 13:12:27

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

It all depends on your natural ability to run machinery. Some people spend years on a dozer and still can't hold a grade. I've been in the business for nearly 18 years and I have always believed that you either have the feel for hydraulics or you don't. You can be taught the tricks and techniques, but you need to have a feel for the machine.

Most likely you will spend an entire day learning the machine before you become productive. I would guess that it would take a beginner 3 to 4 days to do a 800' x 10' driveway and a pro would do it in less than 2 days. I would say less than $1600 to pay someone else to do it. How long will you need to rent a machine to do it yourself? It will probably cost you $400 to $500 per day plus fuel costs to rent a machine. Add at least $50 to $60 per day for fuel and you have less than 3 days to do the job. Plus the rental company will charge delivery and pickup charges on top of that.

You will want the finished stone grade to be slightly higher than the existing dirt grade. That way the water won't lay on your stone and saturate it. You are going to need a little over 400 tons of stone and 1100 square yards of fabric if you choose that option. Another thing to consider is that a pro will most likely use less stone as his grade will be more accurate.

Filter fabric costs around $0.50 to $0.60 per square yard. I personally would not install stone base without it. It will keep the stone and the dirt seperate where otherwise during the wet season, dirt will pump it's way up through the stone. Of course it all depends on the type of soil that you are working with. If the soil is well graded sand/gravel then you won't need fabric, but if it is clay/silt or micaceous, you need fabric. 8" of stone base should be sufficient and with decent soil & fabric you could get away with 6".

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the tractor vet

03-07-2005 15:59:33

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to 720Deere, 03-07-2005 13:12:27

If it took me that long to go 800 feet one blade widthe wide and only 8to10inches deep i would still be putten in entrence way for the drilling rigs We would cut the edge of the road down 18 to24 inches install a 13 inch culvert and cut the lease road back to the pin build the location 200x300 dig two to three pits and put down stone some times the whole location and be in and out in under 8to 10 hours , if i only had to stone the first 100 feet of the lease road no more then 6 hours on the job and off to the next one sometime two location a day, Ya just did not want to get near me and that 750 Deere the first dozer that i ever ran that worked the was i liked to fast.

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720Deere

03-07-2005 19:37:46

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to the tractor vet, 03-07-2005 15:59:33

A Deere 750 is much more dozer than a D4 Cat. We used them for years until they were replaced by 850s and now Cat D6s. A 750 would probably do the same job is about 2/3 the time of the D4.

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Ultradog MN

03-07-2005 13:11:53

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

A few years ago I wanted to put in a road on my lake property. There was an older guy down the road that had a Cat 955H Traxcavator for sale. It's like a D6 with a loader bucket instead of a blade. Never been on a dozer in my life.
I bought it and drove it home. It took me all fall to do the digging etc. I built a beautiful road; nicely banked and ditched. Sure it took me some time to get to where I could do smooth work with it. But I moved huge boulders, transplanted trees, buried a trash pile for my Dad, put a culvert in my brother's road and leveled a pad for a pole barn for my cousin and cleared some land. I then sold it about 2 years later for about $300 less than I paid for it. I wish I had kept it. It was the most fun toy I've ever owned.
I say rent it and do it yourself. It's a lot of fun and not at all hard to learn.
Good Luck
Jerry

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Sloroll

03-07-2005 11:35:15

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Is running easy to learn? yes. "Operate" no. I've hired people who could run a dozer and those that could operate one. Heck I can run one. I have to hire someone to clean up my mess though. But heck, if you have time and you are doing your own work.. why not. However if you buy a dozer rather than rent, remember to keep in mind the initial cost is the tip of the iceburge. Maintanence is a bear as parts are expensive and heavy. Figure up the price of scrap and the weight of the dozer you are buying. If the price is close you are getting what you payed for.

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Dion

03-07-2005 13:15:20

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Sloroll, 03-07-2005 11:35:15

I have to agree with Sloroll.
If you buy a worn out machine you will have nothing but grief. If you get a quality piece, it will be a joy to run.
I still suggest renting one first. only you can tell if you are doing a good job. Learning something new is fun by itself.
If you have no desire to learn to "operate" a dozer then you could hire it done.

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thurlow

03-07-2005 13:05:37

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Sloroll, 03-07-2005 11:35:15

Was wondering if anyone was gonna point out the difference in "running" and being an operator. I agree.....you can learn to run one in a couple of hours; you can be a "cat skinner"/operator in 3-5 years..... or maybe never.

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barryinmn

03-07-2005 11:25:37

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

I bought a JD 350 3 years ago never been on one! I wanted a crawler machine because of getting wheeled machines stuck in mud. The farmer I bought it from put it on my trailer. Took it home crawled it off & promptly cut a snowmobile trail through the woods. 3-4 hours of seat time. It's very easy to cut too deep forward, raise the blade, drop the blade & set up rolling whoop de doos. So watch for that. Back dragging with the blade is easier for inexperienced but takes more time. Dump truck operators can drop the rock & gravel in 6-8" lifts pretty smoothly. Be sure to compact after each lift. Sharp turns on dozers kick up sharp berms quick - planning moves ahead mitigates these clean up areas. Use a tractor with a box blade or landscape rake to set the final surface & then compact.

Have fun

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Zane(WA)

03-07-2005 11:10:36

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Running a dozer isn't hard to learn. It's the fine grading that takes time to master. I've put accountants and other office staff (school taught engineer types)on dozers and loaders to move snow or build an easy access road and for the most part it's turned out okay (the worst that happened is running out of fuel and even that was a good learning experience).
For what you will pay in delivery, rental and fuel, you may be money ahead to hire an outfit to put in your driveway. Good weather or not, there are a lot of hungry Operating Engineers out in the world, right now.
As for using geo-fabric, most everyone I know who has used it will swear by it.

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dr.sportster

03-07-2005 10:58:30

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

My answer from experience, yes, hard as heck.When I was in the Marines I was A metalworker[weldor]I worked at Engineer Test Area.They wanted non-operators to dig tank traps for a Case dozer Vs a John Deere dozer[civilian machines] test.First you cut too deep then too little then too deep then too little and so on.Then at a later date they let my operate a road gradter.Forget it.All the while real operaters yelling advice to no avail.Experience money cant buy holds true on this one.I even had licsences for equipment I could not master.Takes lots of practice.Dont ask about the time we got everthing the place had stuck in a swamp off Rt.1.I didnt even read the other guys answers yet but thats my experience.

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george md

03-07-2005 20:44:28

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to dr.sportster, 03-07-2005 10:58:30

Dr, sounds like something that would go on at the churchville test area .

george

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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 05:02:13

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to george md, 03-07-2005 20:44:28

No its At Quantico,Va.Is Churchville the one near Aberdeen Proving Grounds?If it is I was sent there to weld gussets onto the Dragon Wagon test trucks axles from Oshkosh.

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Rick Kr

03-07-2005 10:23:31

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Thomas,
I would say no, I watch people use them all the time! Then, I got on a newer D4. Blade control in one hand dozer in other. I could run it, but sure didn't look like the pros.
We put in an 800' drive also. Had to go down about 16" + to get topsoil out of the way. I only did the back grading of the topsoil, and it looked ok at best. It still had to be regraded. I did it more as playing around. I don't think you can beat hiring a pro. If you have more time to learn go for it. I always look for a reason to buy another piece of equipment.

Rick

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sawtooth

03-07-2005 10:08:36

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Years ago my dad hired a contractor to put in a farm pond. The contractor had 2 pans (earthmovers). When he was short on help he asked dad to run a D8 pushing the pans, he'd never been on a dozer before. Doing that, at least, was easy to learn.

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Dion

03-07-2005 09:45:43

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Thomas2, 03-07-2005 09:09:54

Thomas,
Having never run a dozer I rented one for 8 hours. I had so much fun that I bought a used case 450. The next year I traded it towards a JD450C (70 hp). You can't beat running a small dozer. A little hand, eye and foot coordination and you are home free.
I would suggest that you dig down deep enough to clear out any topsoil. Backfill with clay if you have it. then fill level with rock. If you fill above the grade you might find you have rocks being spit out of your mower. By taking out the topsoil you reduce to potential of grass and weeds from growing up through the gravel.
I say go for the dozer rental, you will have a ball.

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Steve (Magnolia, TX)

03-07-2005 09:50:07

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Dion, 03-07-2005 09:45:43

Ditto.

A professional should be able to get the job done faster (you know, no learning curve), but...

I've rented a dozer on 2 seperate occasions. I did fine (as long as you discount getting the 1st one stuck.... don't ask). I enjoyed working it and it didn't take too long to get 'er done....

Steve

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RustyFarmall

03-07-2005 10:11:40

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Re: Is running a dozer hard to learn? in reply to Steve (Magnolia, TX), 03-07-2005 09:50:07

I had a very brief experience with a dozer when I was about 17 or 18. The dozer was an Allis HD14? not sure of that but it was a good sized machine. the first thing I found out was that sitting in the operators seat, I had absolutely no view of what the blade was doing. Just could not see it at all. I had to watch the ground beside me to see how deep I was cutting, and listen to the engine to know how hard it was working. I think I would have eventually learned it, but the man who owned the dozer had a daughter, and she was ready to go see the movie. Seemed like a much better idea than learning to run a dozer.

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