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Diesel smokin'

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52-RM

03-04-2005 16:18:31




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Hello,
I have a Long 610 diesel,I had the injectors rebuilt and new rings installed,The engine is not burnning all the fuel,the smoke is grayish/white in color,Could a worn injector pump (low fuel pressure)cause this? The tractor starts fine lots of power..
Thank You for your time..
Al




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Mike M

03-05-2005 04:45:45




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 16:18:31  
Your problem sounds similar if not the same as what I had going on with a JD 2840 I overhauled. Tractor ran fine before overhaul,sleeves were just leaking coolant into oil,new sleeves, pistons,head rebuilt. Put it back together fired it up and it smoked like crazy whiteish gray ? Ran a dyno break in smoke cleared up when warm and working. Start it up in morning and tons of smoke to choke you. Called my injection pump guy,he said that my model of pump was known to wear inside throwing off the timing,the overhaul just made it worse with the good compression.He advised me to change the timing by rotating the pump off the marks it wasn't very much only a line width I can't remember if it was advanced or retarded ? This cleared up the excessive smoke.

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jdemaris

03-05-2005 09:51:24




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to Mike M, 03-05-2005 04:45:45  
That's a common thing with Deeres, but I'm wondering why the pump guy didn't tell you to check the timing advance while runnning instead of advancing the static timimg. I don't know if you've got the Standdyne or CAV pump, but either one can be checked while running, and adjusted. As I recall, we had quite a bit of smoking and cold starting problems with all the 40 series tractors when brand new. We had to change the fuel advance in them, also many had too much valve recess in the cylinder head which had to be fixed by installing seat inserts and/or milling the head. At some point in time, Deere came out with retro-fit repair kit that used pistons with a higher top ring height and a little more piston top stand out. The kits solved a lot of the problems with smoke.

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geok

03-04-2005 19:03:55




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 16:18:31  
Might check your thermostarter for leaks. Take air cleaner hose off and use a drop light. Start engine, you should see far enough in to intake manifold to observe the pre heater unit. Look for fuel leaking into the manifold. Be careful not to let anything fall in while tractor is running. An another thought is to check and make sure the infector return line is not restricted or kinked. Do you know what the infectors psi were set at? If I remember correctly they should be set at 3250 psi.

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kyhayman

03-04-2005 17:40:26




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 16:18:31  
You mentioned new rings, that rings up the old curiosity meter. Was it just a ring job, new rings in old pistons? What about the walls, rebore? Head? worn valves, worn seats? These tractors (Long) are notorious for neeeding top end work due to lack of maint to the air cleaning system. I just was in an IH engine which needed rings, kept looking and found it needed sleeves. Decided to get the head freshened up and found the seats worn almost 200% of tolerance and the valves worn to where you could shave with them.

Other thoughts, engine is not running hot enough.

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52-RM

03-04-2005 18:41:59




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to kyhayman, 03-04-2005 17:40:26  
Well,
Along with the rings I also installed new pistons,I sent the head out for rework they recut the valves and seats,the guides were good.
The cylinder bore had no ridge and I have very little blowby,I also use no oil,The temp gauge reads in the middle "normal" I really don't have the money to throw a injector pump at it to find out it was something else..
Thanks,
Al



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kyhayman

03-04-2005 19:00:09




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 18:41:59  
That is puzzling, on the IH I was working on I found a hair line crack in a sleeve (and into the block). I checked it 3 times and, except for the way the light was the 3rd time I'd still be looking. Low and behold had 2 cracks.

One thing, I had this a long time ago on a Case, mouse nest in the air intake pipe. As far as the smoke goes, mine are billowing smoke most of the time in this weather. With all the work you have done, if power is ok, and its not blowing by I'd not worry about a little (or a lot) of smoke if its the only thing. My barn looks likes its on fire after a cold start.

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Allan in NE

03-04-2005 18:49:33




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 18:41:59  
Al,

Take it out and work the snot out of it. It just might seat 'em in and clean up.

Allan



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Allan in NE

03-04-2005 17:57:59




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to kyhayman, 03-04-2005 17:40:26  
KY,

My thoughts exactly, but didn't wanna jump in here and upset the ol' apple cart. Just throwin' in a set of rings 'taint a gonna cut it.

Also, the other fella said something about a bad pump cannot cause smoking like this. Just 'taint a gonna buy that one either. The classic "bad pump" symptom is grey to black smoke with NO POWER.

Just my view and stated as such,

Allan



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jdemaris

03-04-2005 17:06:40




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52-RM, 03-04-2005 16:18:31  
No. The injection pump has to create enough pressure to open the fuel injectors - either they open, or they don't. If the injection pump wasn't making enough pressure, it wouldn't run at all. They smoke can be from many things. Ignition is caused by heat generated by compression - so low compression can cause smoke. So can the automatic fuel injection advance if not working or set properly.



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RickB

03-05-2005 07:44:23




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to jdemaris, 03-04-2005 17:06:40  
It is misleading to say a worn injection pump can't cause smoking. Low delivery pressure may not be the culprit, but your own post suggests a faulty advance unit could be. Changing static pump timing may cure the symptoms properly; or just mask the real cause which may well be an internal pump problem.



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jdemaris

03-05-2005 09:43:32




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 Re: Misleading?? in reply to RickB, 03-05-2005 07:44:23  
Misleading? Think you're using a little hyperbole and misreading. The guy asked, specifically, if low fuel pressure from the injection pump could be causing his smoking problem, and I stated it could not. Taking this in context, he was speaking of actual pressure to the injectors. When I mentioned automatic advance systems that sometimes use low fuel pressure, that is separate from the high-pressure system in the same pump. Again, taken in context, I think the guy was wondering if low injection pressure from the injection pump could cause low injection pressure at the injectors, and thus smoke, and I said "no" which was true, and still is. If an injector is set to open at 2800 PSI, and an injection pump only generates 2600 PSI, then the engine does not run. Changing static timing will not keep the timing within proper ranges for various RPMs and loads. In the case of his Long, I don't have any idea what it uses for either an injection pump or timing advance.

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RickB

03-05-2005 13:36:08




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 re-read the question. in reply to jdemaris, 03-05-2005 09:43:32  
If you cut through the crap and give the guy a real answer, yes, a worn pump can cause these symptoms. Does it have to be low pressure? No. Can it be something else? Yes. If we asked him, I'll bet he doesn't care to limit the scope of his pump deficiencies to low pressure output. He wants to know whether to include the injection pump in the list of possible causes. The issue is, can the pump be the cause. Yes, it can be.

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jdemaris

03-05-2005 18:32:11




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 Re: re-read the question. in reply to RickB, 03-05-2005 13:36:08  
Perhaps you should congratulate yourself, sounds like you know the person better than I do. Stepping away from your erudite evaluations about my comments being "misleading" or "crap", I was simply trying to answer the guy's question as I understood it - and I tried to do so by being specific. Thought this was supposed to be a friendly forum. Seems like you've got some sort of problem outside of the scope of diesel mechanics.

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52 -Rm

03-04-2005 17:19:27




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to jdemaris, 03-04-2005 17:06:40  
What is automatic fuel injection advance ?
And how would I set the timing ?
the gears are in line what else could I set ?



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jdemarisj

03-04-2005 17:37:17




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 Re: Diesel smokin' in reply to 52 -Rm, 03-04-2005 17:19:27  
Most fuel injection pumps have a means of advancing the timing as engine speed and/or load increases, just as a gas engine advances spark timing with centrifugal weights in the distributor. Some pumps, like distributor pumps made by CAV or Stanadyne/Roosmaster can be adjusted from the outside very easily. I don't know what you have on the Long. Only Long I ever had was a 4WD 410 and it still sits out in the field. That thing had some sort of "Iron Curtain" pump on it, Czec, Romanian, or something like that. I suppose your Long is bigger and newer - so you'll have to get more info. on the pump it uses. Sorry, but I'm not a Long expert.

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