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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Hardfacing Bushhog Blades

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Bill Caldwell

02-27-2005 19:05:46




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Few days back. . .I asked a question about removin' bushhog blades. . .Thanks for all the replys. Haven't forged out any in a few years. . .been told it's cheaper to replace'em. So. . .for all you hands that have a dc weldin' machine. Lincoln makes a hard surfacing weldin' rod, the deposit is both forgable and heat treatable. Abrasoweld is the name of the rod. Works for many applications. Bushhog blades for example. Run beads on the surface to be built up with the same rod manipulation as you would a 7018. (weave, don't let the rod tip leave the puddle) heat just the edge with a forge or a with a rosebud. Hammer on it. . .get it to the shape you want. . .grind or belt sand to final shape. . .usin' a magnet, reheat until edge loses magnetic attraction, quinch in oil, polish edge (grind or sand) reheat edge to a light brown. . .let cool. No need to heat entire blade at anytime. . .just work on the edge, length of cuttin' edge. . .heat no more (red) than 1" back from the edge. Welded and heat treated edge will Rockwell around 58 c scale.

Thanks,
Wild Bill Caldwell
Blacksmith, Bladesmith, Gunbuilder

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Jim from Pa

03-01-2005 09:06:25




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
It does not really effect me to much when fools
injure themselves or cause their own fatalities.
Its probably just natures way of cleansing. The problem
is and what disturbs me is when fools injure or cause death
to innocent bystanders over utter stupidity. You make a
great case for lawyers!



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T_Bone

03-01-2005 01:03:10




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
Hi Bill,

YtMag has a great bunch of guys on here and I think you have taken what there trying to say to you the wrong way.

Although your information posted contains good info with errors for the project discussed, your intended info is for very experienced and advanced craftsmen in the metal trades but we also have alot of very young people learning the trade via internet and there-in lies the problem as your info could and will most likely get someone hurt or killed as there is no warnings of the extreme danger of making such repairs.

Why? Your making a repair on a piece of metal that rotates at a very high speed and if NOT welded, heat treated and balanced correctly, the blade will explode into pieces upon rotation.

To put it another way, it would be like me trying to tell someone how to weld up a gas tank. Now with alot of private e-mails working with a experienced craftsman, I might be able to get them to make the repair without blowing themselfs up, BUT there's a huge risk that I might leave out a small detail thus causing great harm and that is the point the guys are trying to make.

For the average advanced craftman, it's much better to replace blades than try to repair them just looking at it from a safety stand point.

From the price of new blades that I've seen, it doesn't pay to repair them.

T_Bone

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Indydirtfarmer

02-28-2005 09:29:41




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
I run 2 and some times 3 tractors doing commercial bush hogging. Been at it for years. I've seen every kind of damage to a bushhog blade you could imagine. Bottom line.... The cheaper they are, and the SOFTER they are. the LESS damage they do to the mower, and the less likely they are to BREAK. BTDT....

There is a HUGE difference between speculation, theory, and real world application. Once a blade has been through enough to need radical surgery, it needs to be tossed in the scrap pile, not doctored up and experimented with.

After doing this for years, I've learned a few things too. And what I learned wasn't inside a shop. It was gained on a tractor seat, spinning a bush hog.....

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Jerry/MT

02-28-2005 22:03:42




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Indydirtfarmer, 02-28-2005 09:29:41  
What does BTDT mean, John?



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Thordog

03-02-2005 08:22:39




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-28-2005 22:03:42  
Not sure if this got answered or not...BTDT...Been There-Done That!



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brtx

02-28-2005 07:29:07




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
talk about engineers who try to reinvent the wheel!!! no reson for you to be putting engineers down because they answer on a subject that you posted.cant figure out if you are trying to sell your services or market your ideas.with your 3 self appointed titles you have no reason to put down anyone who doesnt sgree with your ideas.this is a forum and you got your response. as you imply i may be dumb.i canguarantee you this dumb old country boy isnt as impressed with you as you are of yourself.my .04 worth

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hay

02-28-2005 03:24:33




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
be better to just buy new blades. both blades and a bolt kit for my bushhog cost less than $60. i got 7 years hard service out of the old set and should get that much or more from the new ones. i know i would be more at ease knowing that the blades were balanced correctly from the factory rather than trust someone to do all you mentioned and pay through the wazoo for it and.



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leland

02-28-2005 01:44:09




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
local welder used to heat them up pound a new edge on them to sharpen them,if they were worth it other wise you left with new ones. But putting a hard surface on a bush hog blade is a waste of time money and material.



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37 chief

02-27-2005 23:21:47




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
A lot of damage is from rock strikes on my blades. I think this would not be a good idea, as the balance of the blades will be affected. Also the chance for a blade breaking will be greatly increased, by cauing a crack on the leading edge of the blade. Mowing has enough risks without increasing the chance for a problem. Stan



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Jerry/MT

02-27-2005 20:02:50




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
Remember that this is a piece of rotating machinery, not a static part. I'm not a metalurgist or a stress analyst, but I would not rework a highly stressed and abused part like a rotary cutter blade that could come apart with fatal consequences. I'd spend the $40-$50 or so for a new set of blades unless the blade manufacturer gives you an approved method for reworking the blades and i was able to follow that method.

Some advice from a former aircraft propulsion engineer whose has seen the results of some blade failures.

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brtx

02-27-2005 19:40:24




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-27-2005 19:05:46  
i dont think all that time in welding etc is worth it.price out the new blades and make a decision.remember you want the blades to weigh about the same so you dont get a vibration that will damage the bearings in the gear box.my .02



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my .02 cents

02-28-2005 02:10:00




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to brtx, 02-27-2005 19:40:24  
I also think that new is the way to go,I wouldn't want to take the chance of breaking the blade off, 'couse a 30 lb blade breaks off spinning that fast it is bound to hurt sombody/somthing. so play it safe, go with new.



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Bill Caldwell

02-28-2005 05:38:08




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to my .02 cents, 02-28-2005 02:10:00  
Hey People, I never said it was cost effective. . .never advised any of you to try it. Matter of fact I would advise you posters so far . .DON'T. . .Now. .let's address a few issues, if you think manufacturers are puttin' the best blades possible or even halfway good blades on a hog, you don't know enough to be around one. Balanced??. I've never yet seen any 2 blades showin' any evidence of bein' balanced. No grindin' to remove weight, no weight added. . .no numbers to indicate matched pairs. S6 would be a good steel, I doubt many are close to S6 composition. You engineer types remind me of when we first started makin' damascus blades (late60's) Engineers, professors, doctorate degrees would visit the shop. All could tell me everything that happens as the steel is heated. Atoms become face centered , structure closes, temperature curves. They could talk austinite, pearlite on and on. Really impressive. But. . .tell them "theres the forge, theres the anvil, take that bar of 01 forge a blade, make the edge rockwell at 61c, make the back softer to be flexable, capable of flexin' some and straightenin' back." They'd stand there with tears runnin' down both legs, a dumb look in their eyes. Bushhog blades?? Most are made by the lowest priced manufacturer. Just like the bridges you cross, built by the lowest bidder. Black Maufacturing on the North side of town has the contract. White fabrication on the southside bids a nickle cheaper. Guess who makes the next batch.

Thinkin' back. . .If I'd listened to you engineer types, all of you with just book learnin' no BTDT. I'd have never invevted the .224Zipperer (40gr bullet, 2200fps from a 5" barrel 1911) Never invented the Delta D10 (155gr bullet at 1600fps from a 5" barrel 1911) Never blown the shoulder forward on a 30/06, put a steeper shoulder, shorter neck, and run up close to 300 win mag with less recoil. Would never have dropped a 57 Cadillac motor in a 47 Army jeep and so on and so forth.

Guess the question should be . . .knowin' what I know about steel, steel manufacturin', engineerin' . . .everytime i pass the hands mowin' the ditch banks on I20 I wish I was in a APC.

Thanks
Wild Bill Caldwell

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JT

02-28-2005 06:43:38




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-28-2005 05:38:08  
Wild Bill,
I do not mean any disrespect, you sound like a man who I could set and watch work a for hours, blacksmithing always intriged me, I am just not real good at it. But on the blade topic, I sell a lot of blades in my business and mower manufacturers may put bids out on their blades for the lowest price, but they also have very, very stringent specs they must meet to get that contract. do to the impact of blades, a manufacturer uses a steel pipe test on their blades to see how they hold up under impact at 18,000 feet per minute, too soft, they are junk, too hard, they become lawsuit material. As for balancing blades, all blades are in balance when they leave the factory, They know what kind of steel they are using, know the weight of the steel they are using, the blades are all run in production, cut the same out the same steel, sharpened the same way every time. Some may come out of balance, but now very often. Then when you put your blade on your lawn mower, the first time you mow with it, it is out of balance, the grass builds up on it in a differant place on each blade. So, the one thing I do know, blades for mowers are probably the most critically checked item on any mower, just due to the fact if they are made cheap, there are a hundred lawyers out there ready to sue someone. Do to the insurance costs to manufacture and sell blades, there are only 4-5? blade manufacturers in the US. A lot of OEMs buy their blades from the same vendor.
Jim

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BushogPapa

02-28-2005 06:11:18




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-28-2005 05:38:08  
Bill, I would like to know More about that 40 gr 1911, and the other loads...can you fill me in..??? Thanks..!! BushogPapa@aol.com Ron



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bushhogger

02-28-2005 05:49:32




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-28-2005 05:38:08  
i am so glad you have so much knowledge and skills. for all of us that are not blacksmiths and such, we have to do the best we can. buying is much easier when i do not have a forge to make or rebuild my own. please don't flame anyone for their opinion because when you post a comment or question, there is bound to be rebuttal.



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Bill Caldwell

02-28-2005 10:29:58




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to bushhogger, 02-28-2005 05:49:32  
Bushhogger, you hit me with "don't flame". That's great. Take your own advice ("I am so glad you have so much knowledge and skill") That sounds pretty "chicken dookey" to me.

Leland, if you haven't hardfaced blades, how can you make that statement? By the way , last year Fiddler Wise ran over an old model a axle that had been drove in the ground to mark a property corner with blades we'd hardfaced 5 years back, blades didn't crack, split, rip, tear, disintegrate or unravel. Mangled the dickens out of the axle.

Bushogpapa, If you don't mind go to www.pistolsmith.com, look in the index for Wild Bill Caldwell. . .View From the Hills. Most of the cartridges I've invented are there along with what I've written about forgin', castin', weldin' and guitar pickin'. If you don't find what you're lookin' for get back in touch with me please.

Now. . .I didn't post here to aggravate or instigate. Didn't mean to hurt any feelin's. Just talkin' to you like I would if we were sittin' outside my blacksmith shop under a blackgum drinkin' coffee. I don't claim to have any wisdom, skill or knowledge. I do have some experience. Workin' 3 old tractors. A 44 Farmall A, what I believe to be a 57 Super A and a 60's International 240 Utility, granted mine ain't garage darlin's or safe queens, but as soon as North Louisiana dries up they'll be farmin', I did think I was as qualified as any to post here. Guess not. I'm too hot tempered and I don't have time to argue.

Thank Y'all
God Bless Ya
Wild Bill

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george md

02-28-2005 14:25:06




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-28-2005 10:29:58  
Bill,

No arguements here , but back about 35 years
when i was in the dirt pushing biz, I used the abrazoweld as a hard face on loader edge and teeth.
problem was that when I was digging in hard rock
the weld would come off and bring a piece of the
edge or tooth with it . Learned that it needed a
cushion layer of a softer rod (7018) first ,then
it worked well. I don't do any blacksmithing , but do have a forge. My buddy the local smithy up and checked
out before we got serious about doing some here.
He always did the show for one museums here. I do some oxy/acet cast iron welding, mostly
manifolds and smaller things, some larger like
vices etc. Below is a link to some pict's.

Don't worry about the negative comments, I here
a lot of how to weld cast with arc , but most
would not dare try the manifolds that I do.

george

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Mark - IN.

02-28-2005 18:09:41




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to george md, 02-28-2005 14:25:06  
George (and Bill), I will be the first to admit that I'm not qualified to weld or rebutt either of you. Welding is most definately a talented and practiced art that I'm not qualified for. That manifold is very impressive. Very impressive. Some time back I posted about an intake manifold that Bill Jenkins welded up to his specs for a car that he ran. To me, was a work of art, bead on top of bead until it grew all the way up as tunnel ram runners for a large plenum. He didn't grind or polish the outside (did the inside), so if he'd tried to sell it on a shelf, most surely would've passed over it because of it's looks. But it worked, and how. Wish I still had a picture of that thing. That manifold of yours, beautiful. And I mean that in a good way.

And as for bush hog blades, I'll buy them because I sure don't have the ability to weld them, or the knowledge of metalurgy if I could. I'm not a/the guy you or anyone wants behind a welder, out of respect to those like yourselves whom know what they're doing, and safety for myself (and family). And I mean that in a good way too, Fellas.

Mark

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george md

02-28-2005 20:40:37




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Mark - IN., 02-28-2005 18:09:41  
Mark ,

If you didn't click the link in the web site
please do , it will take you to a sequence of
the repair and also more projects .

george



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Mark - IN.

03-01-2005 20:18:45




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to george md, 02-28-2005 20:40:37  
Amazing stuff George. Rebuilding pistons and stuff that can't get. I will certainly keep you in mind. Seeing that axle reminded me of an old boss. I'm a telephoneman by trade. Once had a boss from Mobile, AL. that had a business with his brother that rebuilt, repaired, refinished the drilling/cutting bits used on the big rigs that are used in underground mining. At the time, they were supposedly the only ones that did that, and did make a fortune doing it. What they did, similar to what you do, saved companies tons of $$$ over buying new ones. To me that kind of stuff is amazing, and takes initiative.

Mark

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george md

03-01-2005 21:27:42




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Mark - IN., 03-01-2005 20:18:45  
Mark,

Thanks for looking, thought you might enjoy.

The sprocket and axle are for a GT-30 terratrac

and no longer available , axle for 310 case

might work but sprocket is different. It's for

one of the fellows in the case terratrac club.

again - thanks

see ya later

george



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Mark - IN.

03-01-2005 05:27:10




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to george md, 02-28-2005 20:40:37  
I did George, last night before I posted. I will again tonight when get home from work. I saw the manifold that you repaired before, and after. Incredible, truely. Is certainly an art. I'll look again tonight. And blacksmithing - sure takes a lot of skill that I don't have. Yep, know what a forge and anvil are, not the most handy with either. Lots of hard work and honed skills. Gotta run for now though.

Thanks Fellas.

Mark

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Bill Caldwell

02-28-2005 17:57:32




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to george md, 02-28-2005 14:25:06  
I tried people, I really tried to let this go. But I got to thinkin' this evenin', had some slow lathe work to do, and it gets dangerous when I start thinkin'. You engr types, brtx, Jerrymt, two cents, bushhogger, please go back and read my first post again. Start at the sixteenth word, bear down, really bear down at the 25th word. Those two sentences say it all, Try it once more with feelin', Go slow, seems I'm tryin' to say, "been told it's cheaper to replace them." Do you boys have trouble readin' or understandin'. Might try Hooked on Phonics, could help you. If you could have just understood, "Been told it's cheaper to replace them," The rest of the post would not have been necessary. Talkin' about tryin' to let this go, I can't be pulled very far, won't be pushed at all.

So thinkin' about this wonderin' what I said to stir up the sand in you boys duoch water, I wonder could it be territory. A bunch of years back got called out to do some weldin' on a broke down land rig. Cold rainin' freezin'. D6 had to pull my 1 ton the last 2 miles, started around 1 am cuttin, weldin', layin' in the mud, oil, grease, diesel fuel, 'til 4PM same D6 pulled me out, stopped at a honkey tonk in Pistol Thicket, Louisiana to drink a little Jim Beam and listen to the juke box. Get a hot super. Got in a scrape with three red necks, got lucky, won, later asked the bartender what I said to give the boys friction. His reply, maybe you got in their territory. You people feel like I got in your play pen, is that it?

Some of you just don't understand, I didn't say harden the complete blade. just an area maybe 1 inch deep 6 inches long. The edge. If you knew anything about metalurlgy, you'd know the area close to the weld, due to the heat, would be softer, and more ductile than the original blade.

Granted. . I've never mowed the acres Indy Dirt Farmer has. Mr Farmer brings a point forward I'd never thout of. Bears more discussing, Thank you, Sir. Again, I didn't say harden the complete blade. Just the edge. Would like to hear more of your views, sir. Very valid points.

brtk, not sellin' anything. Since the 80's I've had all the work I could stand up to. Stopped taken deposits on custom knives and custom guns 10 years back.If I dropped all other interests, and just built guns and knives, I'd never catch up in this life time. God has blessed me. And you, sir, resent my 3 titles, how small of you.

JT, sir, Very good reply, thank you, I learned from your post.

George, sir, You are right, if it needs more than one layer you've got to use a build up rod. Lincoln used to reccomend somethin' other than 7018, but I don't remember what.

Concernin' lettin this go, I'll stay here now until a moderator dropp kicks me through the goal posts of cyber space. Maybe we can help brtx and the others to read and comprehend.

Rave on Engr types.

Thank you,
God bless you,
Wild Bill Caldwell

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brtx

02-28-2005 21:24:08




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 Re: Hardfacing Bushhog Blades in reply to Bill Caldwell, 02-28-2005 17:57:32  
hooked on phonics?? there sir is my problem.my first post expressed what i thought of your proceedure. my second expressed what i thought of your personal attacks. to me it shows what you think of your fellow man.the self imposed titles you gave yourself does not make you any better or smarter than any engineer or truck driver or any other vocation a person takes up in this life. you need to pull in your horns and evaluate and reread what you have posted. it may be small of me with your 3 self imposed titles , but i doubt if there is anyone on this board that could not come up with some of there own and be justified on posting them. of course most of their egos do not get in front of what they call themselves or on what they post. because some folks dont agree with your point of view does not make them illiterate or not worthy of their opinion. i dont think its opinion bill. ithink it is what you think of or how you treat your fellow man. god bless

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