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Previous accident photos

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dr.sportster

02-22-2005 14:23:31




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Ive read everthing posted about the previous rollover photo several times.I still dont understand how the tractor came all the way around in either accident.Excuse my ignorance please,but can anyone explain these a little more.Allen even said you should tell just by looking at them it was unsafe.What do you think the operators did wrong.Any more discussion is greatly appreciated.Thank you.




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Bill(Wis)

02-23-2005 15:47:55




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
It appears to me that the "tail wags the dog" phenonomen was alive and well that day. Do you think maybe the driver gave the bale a pretty good "fast up" to attempt to get the bale off the ground? It looks like the bale was semi-attached to the ground - possibly frozen.



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Robert in TN

02-22-2005 23:53:37




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
Here are the comments from the one who placed the picture in "Stuck & Troubled". I hope this helps...

"tractor is fine it did very little damage noone was hurt it bent the steering shaft and the seat back is all it done the bale carrier on back would be nice but this tractor goes to all the fields and loads hay on the trailers its loaded probable 400 bales of hay and before we got this one the loader was on a B never turned either one of them over before just bad conditionds that day"

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buickanddeere

02-23-2005 14:19:24




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Robert in TN, 02-22-2005 23:53:37  
If the "bad conditions" of a little rain was all it took to roll the roll the tractor and avoid killing somebody just by luck. This rig was being operated on the previous 400+ bales way past it's safety margin. Just because a loader can pickup 2000lb before the hydraulic relief valve opens. It doesn't make it safe to operate carrying a 2000lbs load. E.G. a 500 ton crane can lift 500 tons when the boom is nearly vertical. Yet that same 500 ton crane will roll over picking up 100 tons even with a full set of counter weights.Even with the stabilizers out and down if the boom reach is too far. You guys have just been living on luck way past safe capacity ,operating on the edge of roll over conditions.Just didn't know or understand it.

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buickanddeere

02-22-2005 20:50:48




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 Mark II oberservation Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
Just noticed something else??? There appears to be a heavy track left by loaded front wheels. It starts near the lower left of the photo and curves up to the roll-over location?



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Mark - IN.

02-22-2005 21:52:49




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 Re: Mark II oberservation Re: Previous accident ph in reply to buickanddeere, 02-22-2005 20:50:48  
Well, it certainly is an interesting photo. I can see those, and maybe a scuff from a rear that don't line up, like it got swung around like a rag doll. You don't suppose that that thing was going like a unicycle on the fronts do you, and then...? Maybe the guy was off with his back to it, and away she took off out of gear down the hill - can't make out the terrain under the camera. Then again maybe Allan's computer mixed up some pictures, and that's how it came out. He did say awhile back that he was having "puter troubles". Maybe it aint fixed yet? LOL.

Mark

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buickanddeere

02-22-2005 22:06:07




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 Re: Mark II oberservation Re: Previous accident ph in reply to Mark - IN., 02-22-2005 21:52:49  
That would make sense, she got away on the driver going down the grade. I had assumed the bales seen in the back field. Were being hauled out of there instead of into the field? Wonder what the chances would be he was headed uphill when she got away on him an she spun a 180 in heading direction before rolling? That left rear tire casting has an odd shaped lump of something on there. Wonder what it is? A chunk of broke wheel weight? It's a very early 50 with the large "windows" in the rear cast centers. The nest of hydraulic hoses is an interesting farmer fix on the back. The loader and hoses look like a very recent addition. This maybe was the first trip on an untested machine with an inexperienced operator. I have to wonder if those rear tires are even loaded? The muffler seems none the worse for wear compared to the steering wheel. The tires appear wet, traction would be reduced again.

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Bob/Ont

02-23-2005 14:44:28




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 Re: Mark II oberservation Re: Previous accident ph in reply to buickanddeere, 02-22-2005 22:06:07  
The bale is only a few feet from where it sat by the looks of the ground and the spot on the bale where it lay on the ground. It looks to me it was just lifted then the bale fought back.
Later Bob



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buickanddeere

02-22-2005 18:36:16




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
You can see the one previous set of tracks into the back field higher and steeper up the slope from where the the tractor resting. No sign of the front wheels cutting in on that one track so that was the trip in and empty. Looks like she rolled on the 1st trip out with a bale. The bales came from the field behind the tractor accident. Those rear wheels were not set out to full width and extra cast ballast cannot be seen. The bale bottom was up about the height of the top of the front tires. Too high as the bale's center of gravity is higher than the rear axle. That loader hasn't changed height much or if it's moved it was only "down". The boom and hydraulics are still under pressure and holding the sheet metal off the ground. That big old wet bale likely went 1500lb+ when dry. Probably had the hydraulics about maxed out to lift it too. That little tractor weighs about 4900lb dry plus what ever the loader weighs. The loader weight is mostly above the tractor centerline however. Even when ballasted with fluid that tractor likely wasn't over 6500lbs tops. Who knows what gear the driver was hurrying up to the the hay shed in. The ground doesn't look very smooth either. Bounce and roll.

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WiCraig

02-22-2005 16:56:06




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
Been there a hundred times before. My wife keeps throwing those bananas peels arounds, gotta whatch out for htem acceidents!!! Thank the lord.



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Mark - IN.

02-22-2005 16:50:21




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
I'm thinking number one with any tractor is to keep the loader as close to the ground as can get away with, period. There appear to be a lot of factors with both incidents. Too small of a tractor with too large a load, not enough rear ballast, probably loaders too high caused the narrow front ends to twist and roll/flip when got on the wrong angle. Maybe even speed, who knows? In any event, keep the loader as low to the ground as can get away with.

Allan says he don't care for spears, and neither do I, but turned on the TV once and saw the aftermath of a guy that had a round bale up high on a loader, and it rolled down the lift arms, over the guy penned in by back and arm rests, and off the back of the tractor, and kept rolling. He lived, but as a parapalegic. I've done some stupid things and always will, because quite frankly, I'm stupid and always will be. But that was very stupid. What the heck was that guy thinking??? Can spear off the 3-point, but not stack.

Tractors are known as "man killers" because they are. Think of all of them close calls most of us have had that might've ended in one very bad hair day. Funny years later when shootin' the bull over a few pops (beers), but at the time sure does got the heart pumpin' through the chest. Be careful.

Mark

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Davis In SC

02-22-2005 19:05:07




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Mark - IN., 02-22-2005 16:50:21  
There was a man here that was paralyzed when a bale rolled back on him. Last year a friend had one roll & pin him in the seat.He was lucky that the ROPS stopped it, he was not injured.



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Mark - IN.

02-22-2005 21:27:05




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Davis In SC, 02-22-2005 19:05:07  
Hey ya Davis. When I saw that thing on TV, they were re-inacting it. When they started lifting the bail (was only tied to the loader), they cleared the bottom edge of the front rim - I thought high enough, stop. Then cleared the top of the front tire, then the hood, then kept going until the farmer could see between the hood and the bottom of the loader, with a bail only tied to it. Holy cow, what was that guy thinking? I don't know if he even got it in gear before the bail came rolling down like a bowling ball, and he won't ever do that again. OUCH!!!

When moving around, I figure the bottom edge of the load at about the bottom edge of the front rim is perfect, above the front axle is looking for more trouble. As far as loader spears go, gotta get the bail on or off of the side of a flatbed and 3-point spears don't lift that high. Just on or off though, and then low as can get away with. Maybe loaders should be spelled "low-ders".

Mark

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Errin OH

02-22-2005 14:39:29




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
Doubt either came all way over, fliped on side then on top. You can see where the bale was sitting on the JD. The other looked some what the same deal. How would you flip one with a blade on the back? Be on he!! of a ride if ya did.

What'd they do wrong - probably nothing they haven't done a hundred times before. I would be guessin but a heavy low hung counter weight might have help prevent both. Keep the back end down. Guessin again what most likely contributed was uneven ground raising or lowerin one rear wheel vs the other. Then it'd be a matter of gravity (as in center of).

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Harley

02-22-2005 14:34:05




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
In both photos, it looked like the rear end of the tractors were not weighted enough. What this means is the front of the tractor with the loader on it is really the fulcrum or center of the entire load, i.e. the tractor, the loader, and the load in the loader. If the rear end of the tractor is not sufficiently weighted down enough to offset the load in the front of the loader, it is like a fat kid and a skinny kid on a teeter-totter, with the fat kid being the loader on the loader. It will come down, over if the tractor is on a slope, etc. I personally have a narrow front tractor (M) with a Westendorf TA26 loader on it, and have no trouble at all lifting 4X5 bales of grass hay, but I have flat top fenders over each rear wheel, about 80lbs. each, and 4 IHC wheel weights on each side, about 100lbs. each, so the whole thing stays on the ground, and also I carry the load so that it just clears the ground until I get to where I'm going and then raise it . Won't EVEN say it might not tip, but one has to take precautions even when coming in for supper. Later, Harley

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JR Straw

02-23-2005 17:27:35




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 Farmall tractors M H in reply to Harley, 02-22-2005 14:34:05  
Is that you Allen have been trying to get in touch w/ you email me at ARTANDMARY@AOL.COM To talk about these tractors I bought off of you



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John A.

02-22-2005 19:59:00




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Harley, 02-22-2005 14:34:05  
Harley, THANK-YOU! My sentiments exactly. 95%of the tractors I see do not have anywhere near half enough weight..
My only other addition is have the rear wheels set out, to help out with the counter wt.
Though it still boils down to "operator error". By not paying attention to the changeing conditios or a stupid mistake. Dead is stil Dead!
Fellows take as many of the factors out of the equationas possible. Dont let the wrong setup sneak up and bite you in the rear.
Later,
John A.

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Bob/Ont

02-22-2005 15:45:40




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Harley, 02-22-2005 14:34:05  
Looks to me he was carrying the load too high from where it lays now. Just clearing the ground is the safest way and drop it at the first sign of trouble.
Later Bob



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JDknut

02-22-2005 14:29:36




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to dr.sportster, 02-22-2005 14:23:31  
Looks like it might have gone over sideways instead of an endo. Just a thought.



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Guest

02-22-2005 14:54:05




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to JDknut, 02-22-2005 14:29:36  
Look at the tread on the back wheels. The tractor did not roll over sideways due to narrow front, it flipped in place because the back wheels are still pointing in the direction he was going. Point this out to the other forum to as I was not able to get registered.



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JDknut

02-23-2005 03:52:59




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Guest, 02-22-2005 14:54:05  
I was thinking of the narrow-front Deere with the hay bale on the loader. There was a place of dead grass, etc. on the ground where it looked like the bale had sat for a while just alongside where the bale ended up thus it suggested a sideways flip. The tractor tire tread direction is a good point, but that is no guarantee.



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Nobe

02-22-2005 19:12:58




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Guest, 02-22-2005 14:54:05  
To help visualize: If you take your rear wheels off and swap sides with them, the tire tread will be backwards. If you roll your tractor over upside down, rolling sideways, the tire tread will be backwards. In the picture, the tractor tire tread would look in the same direction whether the tractor was rolled sideways or was rolled backwards.



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Bob/Ont

02-22-2005 15:56:44




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to Guest, 02-22-2005 14:54:05  
It looks to me like the bale is just a few feet from where it was picked up by the marks on the ground and bale where it had been laying on the ground. That says sideways to me and the bale has spun 90 Deg on the loader too.
Later Bob



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HarryG

02-22-2005 14:51:38




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to JDknut, 02-22-2005 14:29:36  
These type accidents happen all the time. Strangely its always newbees and old timers that get hurt/killed. No ofense meant to any age, I'm considered old timer.
There been many scientific tests to see how this stuff happens. Take a look. You may agree or disagree it makes no difference to me.

http://www.me.psu.edu/sommer/projects/tractorFY1/



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JDknut

02-23-2005 03:56:48




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 Re: Previous accident photos in reply to HarryG, 02-22-2005 14:51:38  
I am a great believer in ROPS and seat belts. The last two tractors I bought didn't have them at first, but I soon corrected that. The first tractor, a White I couldn't get a factory ROPS, so I designed and fabricated one (I'm an angineer by trade so I could do this honestly). the second one, a Deere I was able to get a ROPS and it already had a seat belt.



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