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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

12 or 24 volt?

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fullsircle

02-21-2005 17:36:30




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I have a 4020 JD 24V system with a bad generator and an old starter. I'm thinking of changing it over to a 12V system. I'd appreciate any advice (+ or -). Apparently it would cost $539 to do it from ytshed.com. Thanks.




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Bill(Wis)

02-22-2005 17:02:35




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to fullsircle, 02-21-2005 17:36:30  
If you decide on 12 volts, Thurlow might be interested in your 24 v starter.



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thurlow

02-22-2005 17:59:51




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to Bill(Wis), 02-22-2005 17:02:35  
Thanks for the thought, Bill; I might; believe it or not, John Deere still had the brushes and brush holders for mine. Haven't gotten it put together yet, but it appeared those were the only bad parts. Still have 3 of these old 24V 4020s; a spare starter wouldn't be a bad thing..... ..probably got a half dozen generators, but only one old starter and it is trash.



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jdriver

02-22-2005 14:30:06




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to fullsircle, 02-21-2005 17:36:30  
I know that I will get alot of disagreemwent here but two group 31 stud mnt batteries will always start when two 12 wired up to be 24 v wont.I havea 4430 and a 4640 and 4020 that is that waytwo 12s and they will start when it is cold now.When wired two 12v batteries to keep 12 the amperage adds up.When wired to 24v the amps is only as high as weakest battery.Steve



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fullsircle

02-22-2005 15:27:43




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to jdriver, 02-22-2005 14:30:06  
Steve, Did you wire the 4020 to 12V from 24V?
I'm also concerned with the other wiring on the tractor. Will this effect the lighting and instrument performance? Thanks.



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buickanddeere

02-22-2005 14:57:42




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to jdriver, 02-22-2005 14:30:06  
Your 4430 and 4640 are 12V tractors not 24V. You have the two 12V batteries in parrallel for 12V. On a dual battery 12V system, connecting two 12V in parrallel is the way to go. To get the same power on 12V vs a 24V system. The current has to be doubled when at 12V. Taking the same sized starter body casting and starter cables. When set up for 24V the max possible power output is 50% to 400% higher than a "equal sized" 12V system. A lot of variables depending on how it's designed. Degree of flux saturation, avalable current etc. We don't run high HP electric motors on voltages greater than 120V just for fun. For the average tinkerer, a straight 12V system is easier to fumble through than a 12/24V split or a 12v run/24V start system.

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jddriver

02-23-2005 05:51:38




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-22-2005 14:57:42  
I know the two big tractors are 12v.They both came with 6v batteries wired in series to make 12v.I the ran 00 cable from the positive side of both batts to the stater and 00 cables from the neg to mnt bolt on starter.I then did the same thing on 4020 had the rebuilder I use make a 12v starter and alt and simply used relays to put the headlights on all two 12v circuts.(Old system ran half lights off each battery).It is unbeileivable the amount of reserve they now have and the increased starting rpm.On those occasions when we need one and it hasnt been plugged in youreally apprecieate being able to turn the motor over a few more times to build heat and start it.I did take alot of extra time and hid the wires and did a nice sanitary job.I use my tractors and have to have reliabilty of starting.I realize I have altered them but the chances of me or my kids selling them are slim.(cannot afford replacements).Just my opinion and what works for me.Steve

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txblu

02-22-2005 05:19:10




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to fullsircle, 02-21-2005 17:36:30  
Agree with buickanddeere on the "line running amps" thing. My newly acquired 4230 has 2 six volt batteries in series with one on one side of the tractor (grounded there) and wired to the other side picking up the second battery and the output of it connecting to the starter. Engine turns over slowly for a big diesel you want to start. Wire size looks to be 2 AWG (too small for me).

Now on the other hand, I have 2 12v batteries sitting adjacent to my 24 volt starter on my 4010 (rig I made) and had the same type rig on a 4020 I previously owned. Use 00 wire and no piece is longer than 15". Now if you want to see a diesel start on it's own in the winter (30 degr) the 10 will do it; only cause it's spinning up.....naw, it's screaming.

So, next year, I am going to pull out the 6 volt batteries and wire in 2 12v with parallel wiring, size 00 all the way. I know it will make a difference, but not equal the 24 volt rig.

Is your starter still functional? I bought a 24 volt gen from the www (don't remember if it was from Walt's or not, may have been from an importer/exporter in New England). Anyway I'm recalling that it was around $85 and got a new regl for around $30 for my '10.....been a couple of years...had no problems since. You can redo the starting solenoid yourself by opening it up and doing some housekeeping on the big copper contacts. $ 539 is a lot of bread. I'd be inclined to think about it and do some lookin.

HTH

Mark

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buickanddeere

02-22-2005 15:05:14




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to txblu, 02-22-2005 05:19:10  
About the only drawback to the Deere 12/24V split system is the generator is usually 10amp. Barly enough is the operator never rev's up the engine. Or starts and stops the engine every two minutes while putting around. Not uncommon to find a worn glazed fan belt slipping on a worn generator pulley either. On a new generation tractor an well done alternator conversion doesn't look out of place. Kenneth over at johnnypopper builds a good isolated 24V alternator.

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txblu

02-23-2005 07:56:25




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-22-2005 15:05:14  
That wouldn't be a bad idea for future replacement if needed. I'll look but I guess that is www.johnnypopper.com. Wonder if it has an internal regulator? That would be tops. Then if it has the right price, whatta deal.

Best,

Mark



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buickanddeere

02-21-2005 22:00:16




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 Re: 12 or 24 volt? in reply to fullsircle, 02-21-2005 17:36:30  
If you convert, keep all the old 24V parts safely in a labeled box in a cool dry place. Someday a colector will pay extra for a tractor with all the parts. Off topic but anyways. Makes me cross when looking at purchasing an old tractor. Just to find the fenders, pto shields, battery covers and three point hitch parts etc have got lost over the years. The vender doesn't seem to realize replacing those parts may cost more than what thier tractor is worth. Now 12V v.s. 24V? Well it depends on who is doing the service and what the operating condions are. You can build a 12V system to the max and it will still barly roll the engine over in cold weather.A built 24V system will start the tractor in the same circumstances. It's the same reason why 1HP motors are about tops on 120V. Yet a 2HP and even a 3HP runs fine on the same sized wiring with 240V.

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