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What old tractors have LIVE PTO??

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Smiley

02-08-2005 12:30:12

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I am thinking about setting up a tractor with a snowblower on one end and angling blade on the other, strictly for snow removal, without tieing up a lot of money. The only must is LIVE PTO. It could be any make, wide or tricycle front. Hydraulics would be nice, but I can always add them.
Any suggestions for a good old cheap tractor with live pto will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Smiley

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Scott_M670

02-09-2005 19:42:47

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

I have recently purchased my first tractor. It is an Minneapolis Moline M670. Mine has live PTO and Hydrolics. From what I have red most of the MM from the 60s had the same set up. Beware of wheatland tractors though because the did in have either. The other thing that I have found is that the MM have a tendency to be realitively cheep compaired to some of the others.

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Scott_M670

02-09-2005 19:44:47

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Scott_M670, 02-09-2005 19:42:47

Currently a really nice looking M670 on Ebay.

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wolfmantractor

02-09-2005 16:16:55

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

An early Farmall 706 would have hydraulics on rear & both sides; plenty of weight; Lots of power; IPTO & the gasser was easy on fuel. An excellent one can be had for $3850. See Y-T photo ads.

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Bill in Colo

02-08-2005 18:38:38

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

IH MTA"s were available with live power also the JD model"R" has live independ pto I have a 1952 R

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Everett to

02-08-2005 16:02:16

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

Has anyone ever removed the forks from a all terain fork lift and put in enough parts to make it live PTO, and add a snow blower. Save on the neck. Might be a cheap way to go. Any ideas? Everett

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DHuth2

02-08-2005 22:35:30

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Everett to, 02-08-2005 16:02:16

Why not use the hyd. and install a hyd motor to turn blower?????

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Hugh MacKay

02-08-2005 15:04:50

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

Smiley: Actually you have been getting some misinformation. Cockshutt was actually the first tractor to have fully independant live PTO in 1946. That was on their new 30. It was the first Canadian built tractor ever tested at Nebraska on May 21 through June 3 1947.

The Nebraska test book by Wendel suggests The Cockshutt 40 tested in 1950 was first live pto ever tested at Nebraska. That is wrong as all 30, 40 and 50 Cockshutts had fully independant live PTO right from day one of series in 1946. The Cockshutt 20 was the only one with transmission driven PTO. Oliver came very close behind Cockshutt, and no one else had live PTO until well into the 50s.

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Bob/Ont

02-09-2005 07:28:26

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

Hugh, IHC built two experimentals for the 10-20 but I don't know if any where put into production and sold. One was a generator to run an electric motor and the other was a clutch housing and drive shaft back into the pully shaft that was common to the PTO drive. Both where driven from the front of the engine and the crank mounted to them.
Later Bob

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A.P.

02-09-2005 02:34:32

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

I do not know for sure about the 40's and 50's, but the 30 was available without a PTO, with an independant PTO (without the dual range transmission) or with a regular (non-independant) PTO.

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Correction

02-08-2005 19:23:54

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

Oliver had 300 88's with independent PTO , in the customers hands , in early 1946. Oliver did not publish the independent PTO until 1948 , when it introduced the fleetline series 66 , 77 , & 88. This statement is from chief engineer at oliver. The Cockshutt 30 was the first tractor tested at Nebraska having independent PTO.

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Hugh MacKay

02-09-2005 01:46:25

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Correction, 02-08-2005 19:23:54

Then, perhaps the chief engineer at Oliver should identify himself. I don't recognize the name Correction as a regular handle or name here at YT.

I do know the story on Oliver IPTO, do you?

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that's because.......

02-10-2005 03:57:55

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-09-2005 01:46:25

Correction is not a name.

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The engineers name is

02-09-2005 03:55:28

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-09-2005 01:46:25

T. Herbert Morrell. He wrote the book called " The OLIVER Farm Tractors". When it comes to independent PTO , he says Cockshutt being the first is a myth. And yes , I do know the story behind Olivers independent PTO. There is a whole story on the developement of the independent PTO in his book. Good informational book. You would like it.

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Hugh MacKay

02-09-2005 06:58:10

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to The engineers name is , 02-09-2005 03:55:28

Gosh, all that from a guy that doesn't know his own name.

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A.P.

02-09-2005 02:54:03

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-09-2005 01:46:25

The story is correct but I was not the one to post it earlier. See if you can find a copy of John Culbertson's Oliver Book "The Tractor Builders". There are other records that verify the story.

Cockshutt may have been the first in general production (available to the genral public) with a tractor which an independant PTO could be oredered on as an option.

The Hart Parr 18-36 (late 20's) was the first tractor where an independant PTO could be ordered from the factory and installed by the dealer or customer. It may or may not have been available as a factory installed option when the tractor was built.

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Alberta Mike

02-08-2005 18:35:51

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

Right you are Hugh, the Cockshutt 30 holds that distinction but there is a little asterisk with that statement. Cockshutt was the first with that feature in a full-production run tractor, there were a few earlier ones but they were just sort of "scratch-built" units on other tractors, not a real production run. It was designed and developed by a Canadian by the name of Ivan McRae if my memory serves me correct.

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Trkr

02-08-2005 17:37:25

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

Sheppard Diesel 1949.SD-2,SD-3,live(independent) PTO.

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Dave Sherburne, NY

02-08-2005 16:37:19

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

My son had a cockshutt 30 without independent PTO They were available but why??

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A.P.

02-09-2005 02:30:55

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Dave Sherburne, NY, 02-08-2005 16:37:19

Your son"s Cockshutt 30 should have the dual range transmission. The tractors with the independant PTO setup did not.

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Hugh MacKay

02-08-2005 16:50:32

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Dave Sherburne, NY, 02-08-2005 16:37:19

Dave: You say without independant PTO, but did it have PTO of any kind? I have seen Cockshutts right up to the 500 series with no PTO. I have never seen any but the 20 with transmission driven PTO. Even the Cockshutts I've seen with no PTO were geared inside for independant PTO. This is why I ask.

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Dave Sherburne, NY

02-09-2005 09:59:06

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 16:50:32

I don't recall the transmission, but the pto was
engaged like a farmall super c.

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Hugh MacKay

02-09-2005 12:07:58

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Dave Sherburne, NY, 02-09-2005 09:59:06

Dave: I've never seen one of those, and that is understandable as dairy farmers in my area were calling for live pto before it was ever available from any source. They detested small engines on balers, pull combines, etc. Most of them had tractors with ample power for both pulling and operating the machine, but without the live pto much of the advantage was lost.

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Bill(Wis)

02-08-2005 16:13:37

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 15:04:50

Hugh: Allis WDs had live PTO in 1948. I have a 49 WD with live PTO. Some of the ones you mentioned had independent PTOs. I particularly liked the Oliver independent PTO which was probably similar if not identical to Cockshutt.

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Hugh MacKay

02-08-2005 16:27:46

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Bill(Wis), 02-08-2005 16:13:37

Bill: Thank you for that, Allis is a tractor I know very little about. There was a dealer started near me about the time of the 100 series. Prior to those I know very little.

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paul

02-08-2005 16:50:30

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-08-2005 16:27:46

We will quickly get into the live vs independent discussion, aren't we? :) :) :) :)

I also know very little about Allis, sounds like their setup was some like the M&W conversion for IHC, that put a hand lever into the works to allow one diffy side to spin free, allowing the IHC to have live pto?

--->Paul

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Bill(Wis)

02-08-2005 17:05:25

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to paul, 02-08-2005 16:50:30

Allis was different. The foot clutch was the traditional old clutch mounted right behind the engine. It stopped everything including hydraulics. The hand clutch stopped the tractor but was located behind the PTO & hyd pump. It used a multi-plate wet clutch that was virtually indestructible.

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thurlow

02-08-2005 19:58:30

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Bill(Wis), 02-08-2005 17:05:25

***multi-plate wet clutch that was virtually indestructible.*** My Dad pulled a one-row A-C silage cutter in the '50s with a WD; biggest tractor on the place. In really, really good corn (didn't have a lot of it, but would have some in the creek bottoms), the machine would be overloaded with the tractor in 1st gear. He would "ride" that hand clutch continually..... .

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Jimmy King

02-09-2005 05:16:47

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to thurlow, 02-08-2005 19:58:30

The only tractor we found that would pull that chopper good was a U MM, the best was when we put a power unit on it. Then we pulled it with a Super C with fast hitch, used the hitch to raise and lower the header.

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Bill(Wis)

02-09-2005 02:45:34

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to thurlow, 02-08-2005 19:58:30

I remember doing that pulling a JD one row corn chopper. I know that someone told me that AC used the same clutch as a variable speed device on a SP combine in later years although I believe some of the later the WD45s had a beefed up version of that clutch. I never had a WD45 so I'm not sure.

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Hugh MacKay

02-08-2005 17:29:56

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Bill(Wis), 02-08-2005 17:05:25

Bill That's it, Allis were still using that in the 190XT in 1970. You could shift gears with that, unlike the M&W set up.

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Scotty

02-08-2005 13:35:39

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

JD,s started with the "50", "60", & "70" having it in the early - mid fifties! If memory serves me!

Scotty

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Dick L

02-08-2005 13:18:42

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

Oliver was one the first to have actual live power takeoff. AS I understand they held the paten for years and did some trading with Ford at the time they brought out the Oliver 55

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old

02-08-2005 13:15:49

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

Some of the 100 series Farmalls had live power and hyd say a 450 etc. Also Olivers had both hyd and live power. My self I'd look at olivers. but maybe its because I have 6 of them. As far as allis they had live power but it was not as good as the farmall system or the oliver system. If you don't mind the work you can find an old oliver from around $500 up to 5000 but of course one at $500 would probably need a lot of tlc. And yes 2 of my olivers are fro sale.

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thejdman01

02-08-2005 13:09:44

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

if you could be a tad more specific wet snow dry drifts how big of a blower? obviously you want a blower wider then the widest point of the rear tires but if you are wanting a 7 ft or so we need to know. also how long of a driveway and time wanting to be spent ding your blowing tasks are helpful when making recommendations. also are you going to use the tractor for anything else? just curious before i make a recommendation.

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Kelly C

02-08-2005 12:58:51

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

I guess the best bang for the buck right now would be a Farmall 300. They dont cost a whole lot more than a old H or a M and you get way more tractor.
I have seen quite a few 300's in fair running condition for $1500 to $2000.
Cant beat that with a stick.

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Hurst

02-08-2005 12:57:45

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

I know the Allis D series have a live PTO with the hand clutch, which would also be very useful when snowblowing so you can ride on that clutch when it gets think. This was what we did when we used it to square bale, when the windrow was thick, ride the hand clutch. The PTO will go off when you use the foot clutch, but you can stop forward motion with the hand clutch, which also shifts between high and low range. We had a D-17 Series 4, which will be what you most likely want if you get a d17, since the series 4 had high volume, low pressure hydraulics (todays standard) and also, the series 4 was the first series to be avalible with a factory 3pt hitch.

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paul

02-08-2005 12:38:26

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:30:12

Ford had it as option on models from 100 series (x6x, x71, x81 models), 1000 series, etc - mid 1950s.

IHC starting in the mid 50's - I think the Super models, for sure the 300 & like series?

Oliver had live probably from the early 50's - 55, 66, 77, 88 models did, I kinda think the preceeding line did as well?

Don't know Allis, MM, JD, etc.

There is a real theme there of live pto starting in the mid 50s. :)

I'd probably look for a model with slow or multiple reverse gearing as well, makes blowing with a 3pt blower a lot better.

--->Paul

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Old Time Farmer

02-08-2005 16:27:21

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to paul, 02-08-2005 12:38:26

On the 100 series Fords made from 55-62 (from 58 on they were XX1), the middle number 6 indicates live PTO -- that was standard, not an option. For example, 660, 860, 661 Workmaster, 861 Powermaster all had live PTO standard.

I"m not sure about those Select-O-Speeds witht the middle numbers X7X and X8X.

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travis,IA

02-09-2005 17:46:23

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Old Time Farmer, 02-08-2005 16:27:21

all select o speeds had to have live power because they couldn"t run a pto off an automatic transmission, but it didn"t matter anyway, Fords "live power" design was to run a shaft off the engine flywheel to a hydaulic clutch rear off the tranmission. this was standard on Fords built into the 80"s and is ideal because the pto can be engaged/disengaged irreguardless of trans operation.

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paul

02-08-2005 16:46:49

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Old Time Farmer, 02-08-2005 16:27:21

Yup. I worded it badly, but what I meant to say I guess. The SoS trannies of x71 & x81 were live pto. (There were no x70 or x80 models.....)

Live pto was an option on some models of the 100 series is what I meant. Don't come home with a 850 & think you got live pto. :) Needs to be a x6x or bigger middle number.

--->Paul

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carl in nc

02-08-2005 15:43:00

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to paul, 02-08-2005 12:38:26

I have a 1954 super m-ta in the barn with independent pto. I think it was the first farmall with that feature. I know that some fords in the same age range had the two stage clutch for a form of live pto.

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Smiley

02-08-2005 12:49:09

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to paul, 02-08-2005 12:38:26

Thanks for the info Paul.
I'm a tinkerer and may mount the blower in front and just use a backblade on back for cleanup. That way I won't get a crick in the neck on my 350 ft driveway.
Smiley

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paul

02-08-2005 13:10:55

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 12:49:09

Short driveway. :) Mine's average for around here, about 1000'. Plus clearing to the barn, corncrib, 2 sheds in winter....

--->Paul

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Mikeky

02-08-2005 13:33:20

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to paul, 02-08-2005 13:10:55

John Deere's started in 1954 on the 50, 60, &70
IHC started in 1955 with the 300 and 400
Cockshutt, oliver and Massey Harris were before that I think.

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tractor historian

02-08-2005 19:56:52

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Mikeky, 02-08-2005 13:33:20

Ok here's what I have as information:

1st--- Cockshutt (close second oliver-- I think I have paperwork that says they are the same thing
they did this right after the war.

right after the war sometime Co-0p model c's had a belt driven INDEPENDANT PTO driven off the front shaft... dates not for sure since most production info on the C is suspect

1949==JD R it was an Independant PTO but it was not reliable.

1952 Series 2 super M (not the first superM's but Not yet the MTA)

WD alis had it late 48 I believe but since there is a gap in my allis history I will just say about that time

mid 50's (super 44 massey was there first, MM UB-ZB and m & w retrofits)

fords I know very little about

oh and I do not consider braking the differentials LIVE PTO... thats really just smoke and mirror Live PTO.

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A.P.

02-09-2005 16:58:38

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to tractor historian, 02-08-2005 19:56:52

Shift your list down by one. The independant PTO was available as an option on the late 20's 18-36 Hart Parr. That puts it almost 20 years earlier than the Cockshutt 30 which offered two different PTO systems. One independant and one not.

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buickanddeere

02-08-2005 14:35:16

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Mikeky, 02-08-2005 13:33:20

Live pto 1952 & 1953 depending on which tractor. Power Steering was April 1954. The R had live back in 1949. Need a Hoxey hitch, Deere 800/801 etc to get the proper upper third link on those 50,60 & 70. The Ferguson patient was still an issue then. The Dubuques offered optional live pto on the straight steer yellow stripe 420 for the 1957 model year.

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Smiley

02-08-2005 15:53:54

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to buickanddeere, 02-08-2005 14:35:16

Thanks for the thoughts fellows. Although I've had tractors for a long time, live pto was never an issue before. I didn't realize Cockshuts and Masseys had live that far back. I happen to know where there is a decent looking old Cockshut that can be had right. How hard are they to find parts for if needed.
I have a 6 ft drag behind blower that I'm thinking about mounting up front. Have also considered getting a couple better made old garden tractor blowers and mounting them side by side, up front and may do it just for the heck of it.
Smiley

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Dave Sherburne, NY

02-08-2005 16:40:18

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Re: What old tractors have LIVE PTO?? in reply to Smiley, 02-08-2005 15:53:54

Cockshutt 30 is easy to find parts for . Buda 273 diesel used in my 40 is next to impossible.

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